Would you take Frank Thomas or Jeff Bagwell?

There is no right or wrong answer. Bagwell and Thomas have been remarkably similar in their productivity. It just depends on which season in their careers.

That said, I personally can't stand Thomas' whining, and would pick Bagwell if only because of that.

 

right now..i'd take the big hurt...he seemst to be more effective at the plate than bags.

over a career, jeff bagwell for sure!

 

are you talking about over the course of their career??

Jeff Bagwell has been a stellar defensive first basemen. If they're absolutely even at the plate, Jeff's defense over the course of his career, before the shoulder injury, was fantastic and clearly puts him over Frank, overall.

When I think of individual years...I'd put Bagwell's 94 up against any one of the first basemen who've ever played the game. Few have ever played at that level, at any position.

 

Should the strike year really count?

 

It's hard for Thomas to be effective at the plate when he hasn't played since early July and is out for the rest of the season.

 

The season he was having was truly one of the greats. The strike should not put a damper on it with the possible exception of his MVP award. The (un)fortunate part about the strike is that it enabled Bagwell to win the MVP. Bagwell was likely out for the season due to his broken hand suffered shortly before the strike. I doubt he would have won MVP had he not played the last 6-7 weeks of the season.

 

we missed one month of the season. my point was simply that the season he was having to that point was unreal.

 

I agree, in that, he was having a fine season (who wasn't though), but an asterisk belongs by the '94 season. I don't think you should throw out season comparisions when someone only plays sixty-five percent of the games.

 

If Bagwell had played his career in Comisky Park instead of the Astrodome, his numbers would be significantly higher than Thomas'.


Another eerie fact about the similarities of their careers...they were both born on the exact same day.

 

I know this is a Houston board, but this poll shouldn't be so lopsided.

I take Frank Thomas, but only by the slimmest of margins - these are basically the best two offensive players of the 1990's. Frank has the advantage in AVG, OBP & SLG - not a large advantage, but one nonetheless.

Granted that Bags played a large chunk of his career in the cavernous Astrodome, but neither of the Comiskey Parks that Hurt played in have been hitter's yards. Thomas has a career OPS+ of 162, against Bagwell's 153, and that number factors in park effects.

Bagwell is obviously the better defender, but defense at 1B is largely negligible IMO, so I don't really factor that in. Bagwell also has a decided advantage in SB - I didn't realize he had a pair of 30/30 seasons. That tightens up the comparison as well.

I'm also one that argues that Bagwell's 1994 is one of the most impressive seasons of all-time. His OPS+ (again factors in the park effects of the Astrodome) that year was 213, good for #23 all-time (anything over 200 is phenomenal). Of course, Frank had nearly as good a year in 94, posting a 212 OPS+, which ranks #24 all-time.

It basically is a flip of a coin, and to me Thomas' offensive advantage outweighs the defensive & speed deficiencies as compared to Bagwell.

 

I'm sure this was brought up before, but they share the same birthday as well.

 

Yeah, two posts up.

 

So you don't take into account that Bagwell has played over 2000 games in the field (i.e. a more complete player) and Thomas less than 1000?

I would think that with the relative closeness in their offensive stats, that Bagwell's defensive ability would swing non-partisan voters his way. Add to that the number of playoff appearances. granted, bagwell (for the most part) has been miserable in the postseason, but he did help carry his team to the division title 4 times while Thomas has made it twice. Incidentally, Thomas had one nice playoff series and one miserable one.

 

Bagwell has about the same number of homeruns on the road as he does in the dome during those years and his numbers didn't suddenly jump when they moved into Enron/MinuteMaid. I know its easy to make that conclusion but when you look at the numbers it isn't neccessarily a given that he was hurt by the Dome.

 

Really? How about Mark McGuire in 1998? 70 HRs and a 1.222 OPS is just a bit better than any season Bagwell has ever had. As for any position, then you have to talk about Bonds the past few years, Babe Ruth, and the guys who hit over .400.

EDIT: Oh, and I voted for Bagwell, because if you have the same hitting numbers, and you can play well in the field, that is more valuable. Just like Ruth gets extra credit for being able to pitch.

 

McGwire's 98 was awesome. He broke the freaking homer record!! An awesome year, no doubt. I won't argue with you if you put his up there above Jeff's 94. And I would never argue that Jeff's 94 was better than Barry's seasons here lately. Barry gets listed among guys with names like Babe, Ted and Willie on my short list of greatest to ever play.

But I'll stand by my statement. He had a year in 94 that ranks among the greatest of any season by a 1B, even if you can rattle off a few that were better...and few have ever had those types of season at any position.

 

How much better would Bagwell's offensive numbers have been if he didn't have to expend any effort in the field? Or if he could partially rest nagging injuries by merely DHing(like say, a shoulder injury)?

 

Bagwell not only wins because of his defense, but also his base running which is really good for a power guy. I am a big Thomas fan however, he really made me a baseball fan in the nineties. The guy also played tight end at Auburn so he is a really good all around athlete.

 

while thomas' .996 OPS is damn impressive, like others have said, factor in gold glove caliber defense for about a decade and then factor in almost 200 career steals (isn't he the only 1b ever with a 30/30 season?) and bagwell has to get it.

it's not the steals, per se, just the speed for a power guy they represent. being able to get home from second on a single, from first on a double, tagging up on a fly ball. which also brings up the fact he's an amazing baserunner. his speed is a big reason he's such a run scoring machine. there's no way he's already at 1500 runs w/o it. hell, he's gonna score over a 100 runs (most likely) this year in what has been a big time down year.


as for his '94 season. obviously the injury renders projections moot, but the pace he was on that season was amazing. he was gunning for 60 homers, 170 rbi, 150 runs, 20+ steals, and he was hitting .368, slugging .750, and OPSing 1.200. and he threw in a gold glove for good measure. while mcgwire had the hr record and had a 1.222 OPS, you could easily argue bagwell had a better season based on the .368 vs .299 avg, the steals, and the extra runs and rbi's. it's just a shame i was so young when that season happened so i couldn't better appreciate it.