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"Why the Far Left Excuses Islamofascism"

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by giddyup, Jun 26, 2005.

  1. giddyup

    giddyup Contributing Member

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    http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200506240756.asp

    F or all the talk of imperial America, and our frequent "police actions," we are hardly militarists. Protected by two oceans, and founded on the principles of non-interference in Europe's bloody internecine wars, the United States has always been rightly circumspect about going to war abroad. The American people are highly individualistic, skeptical of war's utility, and traditionally distrustful of government — and wary of the need of their sacrifice for supposed global agendas.

    So we go to war reluctantly. And being human, our support for war hinges on its being short and economical, and waged for professed idealistic principles. Wars that drag on past three years — from the Civil War to Vietnam — can often lead to demonstrations and popular disdain.

    By the same token, some politics are more compatible with the American perception of the need to fight.

    It was not only Lincoln's gifted rhetoric that got the Union through Cold Harbor and the Wilderness, but after the war's initial months of hard fighting, his reinvention of the North's very aims, from a utilitarian struggle to restore the United States to a moral crusade to end slavery and the power of the plantationists for good. In that effort, he was willing to suspend habeas corpus, sidestep the Congress, and govern large chunks of the border states through martial law.

    Woodrow Wilson intervened liberally in Central America. He led us to war against right-wing Prussian militarism. His "too proud to fight" slogan in was no time scrapped for the Fourteen Points, a utopian blueprint for the nations of the world, handed down by a former professor from his high and moralistic Olympus.

    Few worried that Franklin Delano Roosevelt not only waged a savage global struggle against Italian, German, and Japanese fascism, but in the process did some pretty unsavory and markedly illiberal things at home. It was no right-wing nut who locked up Japanese Americans without regard for habeas corpus or ordered German agents to be shot as terrorists.

    To end the dictatorial and genocidal plans of Slobodan Milosevic, liberal Bill Clinton was willing to bomb downtown Belgrade, commit American forces to a major campaign without U.S. Senate approval, and bypass the United Nations altogether. Few accused him of fighting an illegal war, contravening U.N. protocols, or cowardly dropping bombs on civilians. In all these cases, public opposition was pretty much muted, despite the horrendous casualties involved in some of the conflicts.

    Some general principles, then, can guide us in determining American reactions to war, and they transcend even the notion of comparative sacrifice and cost. Progressives such as Wilson and Clinton, who, we are assured, hate war, can intervene far more easily, and are more likely to receive a pass from a hypercritical elite media.

    In the end, they always seem forced to fight by circumstances, since their very liberal natures are supposed to abhor optional conflicts. FDR's wartime criminal-justice apparatus trumped anything that John Ashcroft could imagine, but it has remained relatively unexamined even to this day: Liberals must have had very good reasons to put non-white people in camps, so contrary to their innate notions of social justice.

    Second, the United States seems to be more united against right-wing fascism than left-wing totalitarianism, perhaps because our elites in academia, journalism, and politics feel authoritarian dictators from the right lack the veneer of egalitarian empathy for the poor. In any case, we are more prone even today to assume the 6-8 million Hitler slaughtered puts him in a category far worse than Stalin or Mao, despite the fact that the two combined did away with ten times Hitler's tally.

    During World War II, here at home we experienced nothing like the Rosenbergs or Alger Hiss working for the Axis, even though Soviet-inspired global Communism would end up liquidating 80 million in Russia and China alone. Fighting North Korea or North Vietnam — or even waging the Cold War — was a far more difficult enterprise than opposing the Kaiser, Hitler, Mussolini, or Tojo. Our successes were often due to the efforts of strong anti-Communist democrats such as Harry Truman, who could assure our influential universities, media, politicians, writers, actors, and foundations of the real danger, and the fact that the president had little choice but to go to war.

    In this context, many had some apprehensions about the present so-called war on terror. Ostensibly, the Islamists who had pulled off September 11 largely fit past definitions of fascism and so should have galvanized universal traditional American furor.

    The tribal followers of bin Laden advocated a return to a mythical age of ideological purity uncorrupted by modernism, democracy, or pluralism. Islamism certainly held no tolerance for other religions, much less any who were not extreme Muslims. Sexism and racism — remember bin Laden's taunts about Africans, ongoing slavery in the Sudan, and the genocide in Darfur — were an integral part of radical Islamist doctrine. Al-Qaeda was not so much chauvinistic as misogynistic. Substitute bin Laden's evocation of "believer" for the old "Volk," and the crackpot rants about world domination, purity, and the anti-Semitic slurs of "apes and pigs" fall into the old fascist slots.

    It is no accident that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and Mein Kampf are still popular sellers among zealots in some capitals of the Arab world. Was our war on terror, then, going to be morally clear to even the most progressive utopian, since our enemies lacked liberal pretensions and the charisma of a Stalin, Ho, Che, or Fidel that so often duped the gullible?

    Hardly.

    Two factors explain the current growing hysteria over Iraq, and they transcend the complex nature of the war and even the depressing media reports from the battlefield. First is the strange doctrine of multiculturalism that has become one of our most dominant boutique ideologies of the last few decades, as the United States experienced unleveled prosperity, leisure — and guilt.

    All cultures are of equal merit; failure and poverty abroad are never due to indigenous pathology but rather Western colonialism, racism, Christianity, and gender bias. The Other is never to be judged by our own "biased" standards of jurisprudence and "constructed" bourgeois notions of humanity; those poorer, darker, non-Christian, and non-English-speaking are to be collectively grouped as victims, deserving condescension, moral latitude, and some sort of reparations or downright cash grants. Senator Patti Murray gave us the soccer-mom version of this pathology when she once talked of the need to rival bin Laden's supposed humanitarian projects in Afghanistan, while Senator Durbin assures us from a private e-mail that poor suspects in Cuba (no longer terrorists who plot to butcher more thousands) suffer the similar fate of Hitler's victims.

    As September 11 faded in our collective memory, Muslim extremists were insidiously but systematically reinvented in our elite presentations as near underprivileged victims, and themselves often adept critics of purported rapacious Western consumerism, oil profiteering, heavy-handed militarism, and spiritual desolation.

    Extremists who would otherwise be properly seen in the fascistic mold were instead given a weird pass for their quite public and abhorrent hatred of non-believers and homosexuals, and their Neanderthal views of women. Beheadings, the murder of Christians, suicide bombings carried out by children, systematic torture — all this and more paled in comparison to hot and cold temperatures in American jails on Cuba. Suddenly despite our enemies' long record of murder and carnage, we were in a war not with fascism of the old stamp, but with those who were historical victims of the United States. Thus problems arose of marshalling American public opinion against the supposedly weaker that posited legitimate grievances against Western hegemons. It was no surprise that Sen. Durbin's infantile rantings would be showcased on al-Jazeera.

    When Western liberals today talk of a mythical period in the days after 9/11 of "unity" and "European solidarity" what they really remember is a Golden Age of Victimhood, or about four weeks before the strikes against the Taliban commenced. Then for a precious moment at last the United States was a real victim, apparently weak and vulnerable, and suffering cosmic justice from a suddenly empowered other. Oh, to return to the days before Iraq and Afghanistan, when we were hurt, introspective, and pitied, and had not yet "lashed out."

    If one examines the infomercials of a bin Laden or Zawahiri, or the terrorist communiqués sent to the Westernized media, they are almost all rehashes of the Michael Moore Left, from "Bush lied" to "Halliburton" to "genocide" and "Gulag." This now famous "Unholy Alliance" of radical anti-Americans and reactionary jihadists is really a two-way street: Islamists mimic the old leftist critique of the United States, and the Western Left hopes that they in turn can at least tone down their rhetoric about knocking walls over gays or sending all women into burka seclusion — at least long enough to pose as something like disposed Palestinians minus the Hamas bombs laced with feces, rat poison, and nails.

    The second problem was that not only were we no longer clearly fighting a right-wing extremist ideology, but Texan, twangy, and conservative President Bush was hard to repackage into the reluctant liberal warrior in the image of Woodrow Wilson, FDR, Harry Truman, or Bill Clinton.

    So there was never much room for error in this war. We are not talking in this postmodern era in terms of a past Democratic president invading Latin America, interring citizens in high-plains camps, hanging terrorist suspects, nuking cities, or bombing pharmaceutical factories in Africa, but, at least from the weird present hysteria, something apparently far worse — like supposedly flushing a Koran at Guantanamo.

    In a leisured and liberal society, it is very difficult in general for a conservative to wage war, because the natural suspicion arises — as a result of the conservative's tragic view of human nature and his belief in the occasional utility of force — that he enjoys the enterprise far more than a lip-biting progressive, who may in fact order more destruction. George H. W. Bush barely pulled off freeing Kuwait, but only because he fought on the ground for only four days, used the aegis of the U.N., pulled back on televised images of the so-called "Highway of Death," and was able to avoid going to Baghdad and dealing with a murdering despot still in power.

    In contrast, once the metamorphosis of the Islamists from fascists to victimized critics of the West was underway, and once a suspect conservative like George Bush eschewed the old League of Nations utopianism, the fireside chat, and the "I feel your pain" persona of traditional Democratic war leaders, I feared we would have real trouble finishing this war.

    Contrary to all recent popular wisdom, the war in Iraq is not a disaster, but nearing success. It has been costly and at times tragic, but a democracy is in place, accords are being hammered out with Sunni rejectionists, and the democratic reformist mindset is pulsating into Lebanon, Egypt, and the Gulf. This has only been possible because of the courage and efficacy of a much maligned military that, for the lapses of a small minority at Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib, has been compared to Stalin and Hitler.

    If President Bush were a liberal Democrat; if he were bombing a white Christian, politically clumsy fascist in the heart of Europe; if al Qaeda and its Islamist adherents were properly seen as eighth-century tormenters of humanists, women, homosexuals, non-Arabs, and non-Wahhabi believers; and if Iraq had become completely somnolent with the toppling of Saddam's statue, then the American people would have remained behind the effort to dismantle Islamic fundamentalism and create the foundations to ensure its permanent demise.

    But once the suicide murdering and bombing from Iraq began to dominate the news, then this administration, for historical reasons largely beyond its own control, had a very small reservoir of good will. The Islamists proved to be more adept in the public relations of winning liberal exemption from criticism than did the administration itself, as one nude Iraqi on film or a crumpled Koran was always deemed far worse than daily beheadings and executions. Indeed, the terrorists were able to morph into downtrodden victims of a bullying, imperialistic America faster than George W. Bush was able to appear a reluctant progressive at war with the Dark Age values of our enemies.

    And once that transformation was established, we were into a dangerous cycle of a conservative, tough-talking president intervening abroad to thwart the poorer of the third world — something that has never been an easy thing in recent American history, but now in our own age has become a propagandist's dream come true.

    — Victor Davis Hanson is a military historian and a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University. His website is victorhanson.com.
     
  2. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    I haven't seen many if any liberals excusing islamic terrorists of anything. It is also worth noting that Iraq had pretty much zero Islamofacists while Saddam was in charge.

    It was the Bush administration and not the liberals that coined the phrase "winning the hearts and minds".
     
  3. giddyup

    giddyup Contributing Member

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    Actually that goes back to LBJ and the Viet Nam War. Bringing that up was an unfortunate decision/oversight on the administration's part.
     
  4. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Contributing Member

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    It really is amazing how powerful the powerless have become, now that there's no one else left to blame. Back when we were actually protesting this war in any meaningful fashion, no one was buying. Now that there is overwhelming disdain for it from ordinary Americans, it's the fault of the left. FB's right. None of us has ever excused terrorism or any other aspect of radical Islam. Nor have we ever purported to understand it. Our outrageous crimes are these:

    - We disagree that Iraq had anything to do with a war on our enemies from 9/11, even in the broad terms of the War on Terror.

    - We disagree that Iraq ever posed a serious threat to the United States.

    - We felt (and continue to feel) that this war effort would be more difficult and more costly than our leaders assured it would be.

    - We felt (and continue to feel) our efforts in response to 9/11 ought to have been focused strongly on Al Qaeda, at least until such a time as the people who actually attacked us were brought to justice.

    - We feel the United States should be held to a much higher standard than our enemies with regard to human rights. We feel shamed by Abu Ghraib and Gitmo.

    - We feel it is our patriotic duty not to be silent but to speak loudly when we feel we've been willfully misled by our government.

    For the above reasons, the Left is now (somehow, amazingly) to blame for Bush and co.'s failures to date in Iraq and Afghanistan. No, it's not to do with the fact that we sent far less troops than were recommended by the experts (the same experts that were fired for making those right recommendations); it's not because our 'coalition of the willing' was tiny to begin with and has now shrunk to virtually nothing; it's not because the United States has lost virtually all credibility not only in the MidEast or the international community, but in fact at home as well, due to the constant moving of the goalpost and the universal realization that our government has been far less than honest with the world at large. No, it's the liberals' fault for daring to point these things out. As Daily Kos recently said, the "Clap Louder" strategy isn't working.

    Guess what, giddy. This has nothing to do with the "Far Left" anymore. Democrats and Independents alike overwhelmingly believe that this war was a mistake, that it was not worth the cost, that we were misled and that we will fail. This is not a leftist take anymore -- it's an American one.

    One of these days you guys are going to have to own up to your own mistakes instead of just b****ing at us for pointing them out.
     
  5. rimbaud

    rimbaud Contributing Member
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    Did he just dismiss post-colonialism? Indigenous pathology? "Dark people disease" is ot a great way to make friends.

    I see, though, that he got his PhD in Classical Studies in 1980...so that makes sense that he would be against such things and it makes "former professor from his high and moralistic Olympus" extra fun.

    Hanson must be really sad that McKinley was a Republican.
     
  6. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Contributing Member

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    Pardon me while I quote my own post verbatim from another thread.

     
  7. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    Giddy, you hijacked the title of the original article. Nowhere in it - the title or inside the article - was the word "Islamofascism" used once. I seriously doubt its author would be very happy about your creative impromptu and the manipulative infringement of his intellectual property.

    The term Islamofascism is very controversial political epithet. You better make sure you know what you are talking about before you use it liberally.
     
  8. losttexan

    losttexan Contributing Member

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    this guy is an idiot. there are sooo many inacuracies in this i don't know where to begin.

    faulty logic.
    faulty conclusions.
    faulty facts.

    1st he states that woodrow wilson got us into WW1, FDR got us into WW2 and clinton got us into a conflict with Slobodan Milosevic, but we don't mind because they were Demorats.

    2nd he states that the reason we hate hitler more than stalin is because he was a right winger and stalin was a left winger.

    Fighting North Korea or North Vietnam — or even waging the Cold War — was a far more difficult enterprise than opposing the Kaiser, Hitler, Mussolini, or Tojo

    this statement speaks for itself.

    3rd he states that the perpatrators of 9-11 are very much like facists and since america likes killing them more than commies we should want to fight this war but we don't because we feel guitly that they live in a third world nation and because bush is a conservative.

    4th he states (and for the life of me I can't figure out this logic) it is the Democrats fault GB sr. didn't go on to Baghdad in the first gulf war.

    5th
    the war in Iraq is not a disaster, but nearing success

    this statement is a real credablility killer

    6th
    But once the suicide murdering and bombing from Iraq began to dominate the news, then this administration, for historical reasons largely beyond its own control, had a very small reservoir of good will

    the poor administration, no one will cut them any slack for screwing up.

    this guy is a joke!
     
  9. rimbaud

    rimbaud Contributing Member
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    The use of quotation marks does suggest an article title but maybe giddy just took it from the title of the email he received and didn't actually read the source.

    Hansen uses "islamofascism" in other writings, though.
     
  10. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    Nice try, rimbaud. ;) But it can easily be debunked. Before I expose it, however, I'll give you a chance to recognize that the article giddy posted here was most likely directly copied from the website source.

    EDIT: I give you a hint. Take a look at the start of the 1st sentence "F or all the talk ...", and ask yourself why there is a gap between "F" and "or".
     
    #10 wnes, Jun 27, 2005
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2005
  11. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    Sarcasm detector on, wnes.

    As long as America supports client states like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Pakistan and even Israel, we will bilaterally excuse "Islamofascism".
     
  12. giddyup

    giddyup Contributing Member

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    Oh, my God, the horror-- copying from a website source! Throw it out...
     
  13. giddyup

    giddyup Contributing Member

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    "Victor Davis Hanson is a military historian and a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University."

    And who are you?
     
  14. giddyup

    giddyup Contributing Member

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    So you were okay with the Taliban and the worldview of these Islamofascists? If you are not then you are likewise bashing. You are illustrating this guy's point for him. Is that good or bad?
     
  15. giddyup

    giddyup Contributing Member

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    "As September 11 faded in our collective memory, Muslim extremists were insidiously but systematically reinvented in our elite presentations as near underprivileged victims, and themselves often adept critics of purported rapacious Western consumerism, oil profiteering, heavy-handed militarism, and spiritual desolation.

    Extremists who would otherwise be properly seen in the <b>fascistic</b> mold were instead given a weird pass for their quite public and abhorrent hatred of non-believers and homosexuals, and their Neanderthal views of women. Beheadings, the murder of Christians, suicide bombings carried out by children, systematic torture — all this and more paled in comparison to hot and cold temperatures in American jails on Cuba. Suddenly despite our enemies' long record of murder and carnage, we were in a war not with <b>fascism</b> of the old stamp, but with those who were historical victims of the United States. Thus problems arose of marshalling American public opinion against the supposedly weaker that posited legitimate grievances against Western hegemons. It was no surprise that Sen. Durbin's infantile rantings would be showcased on al-Jazeera."

    Here's the actual title of the piece: "The Politics of American Wars
    How fascists became the "victims" in the current war."

    Yeah, I really stretched it. I like the word. It really rolls off the tongue. It's a far better insinuation than Durbin's.
     
    #15 giddyup, Jun 27, 2005
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2005
  16. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    The hijackers were either Egyptian or Saudi Arabian.... Unless you consider those countries the Mother Russia of the current domino theory, we could probably take them on and topple their governments in the matter of Wolfowitz Weeks.
     
  17. giddyup

    giddyup Contributing Member

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    <b>Batman Jones

    - We disagree that Iraq had anything to do with a war on our enemies from 9/11, even in the broad terms of the War on Terror.</b>

    So Saddam was not a terrorist-- albeit an empowered and enthroned one?

    <b>- We disagree that Iraq ever posed a serious threat to the United States.</b>

    Probably one thing with which I can remotely agree, although I do also agree that he was one briefcase away from handing off some bio-chemical weapon to another terrorist. But you're right; it's probably better just to wait and see if our other enemies kick us while we're down or not...

    <b>- We felt (and continue to feel) that this war effort would be more difficult and more costly than our leaders assured it would be.</b>

    That is an easy prediction. Virtually all wars are tougher than anticipated. See previous quotations from Churchill and Eisenhower.

    <b>- We felt (and continue to feel) our efforts in response to 9/11 ought to have been focused strongly on Al Qaeda, at least until such a time as the people who actually attacked us were brought to justice.</b>

    9/11 was not a crime; it was an act of war They didn't steal anything except our security.

    <b>- We feel the United States should be held to a much higher standard than our enemies with regard to human rights. We feel shamed by Abu Ghraib and Gitmo.</b>

    And we have more than lived up to it-- a few lapses notwithstanding.

    <b>- We feel it is our patriotic duty not to be silent but to speak loudly when we feel we've been willfully misled by our government.</b>

    Shout it at the bars and coffee shops if you think it helps. Just try not to have it caught on some audio or video that might end up on al-Jazeera.
     
  18. giddyup

    giddyup Contributing Member

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    1. Which of the following nations has the US had nothing but "strained" relations with for the past decade?

    A. Egypt
    B. Saudi Arabia
    C. Iraq

    2. Which of these nations lies between Iran and Syria?

    A. Egypt
    B. Saudi Arabia
    C. Iraq

    3. Which of these nations has a citizenry which has lived for 30 years under the heel of a brutal dictator?

    A. Egypt
    B. Saudi Arabia
    C. Iraq
     
  19. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    That is correct. Saddam was not a terrorist, but a dictator which may be worse for people that live under one.

    Of course no intel agency believed Saddam would ever hand over bio or chem weapons to anyone UNLESS he was attacked. Saddam had zero history of handing over such weapons, and as it turns out, Saddam didn't even have the weapons to hand over. With inspectors back in we could have made sure it stayed that way.
    The toughness of this war was anticipated, but those anticipations weren't listened to.
    Except that the administration has also sought for ways to wiggle out of it, and promoted those that offered such ways, and slams anyone who dares to mention the lapses that you mentioned.
    What does it matter if Al-Jazeera hears it? Al-Jazeera is free to print or show whatever it wants. There is no harm in what Al-Jazeera does.
     
  20. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    giddyup
    How does the answer to any of those questions explain finding those roots of the 9/11 hijackers and bringing those terrorist groups accountable?

    1. Which of the following nations has the US had nothing but "strained" relations with for the past decade?


    Strained relations is subjective. Pakistan was nowhere close to being an ally until Musharif decided they were "with us".

    Here's a mind trip for you. We're "close allies" to the only Islamic nation that officially posses nukes whose existing government branches home grew the Taliban.


    2. Which of these nations lies between Iran and Syria?


    If you truly fear the Islamohoosits geography, where is the spiritual capital of Islam located? What kind of Islam does that government endorse? How similar are its principles to the terrorists? Wahabism, the form of Islamic extremism bin Laden preaches, originates and is exported from Saudi Arabia.

    Does your question 2 imply a domino theory indeed exists? If so, for what reason are we Cold on Egypt and Saudi Arabia?


    3. Which of these nations has a citizenry which has lived for 30 years under the heel of a brutal dictator?


    Sadat was brutal before he was assassinated. Mubarak is considered a moderate, but democratic elections are withheld and he violates rights we take for granted such as banning the practice of torture, due process, and freedom of speech. It's nowhere close to Saddam at his genocidal peak, but Egypt has a homogenous cultural base that different than Iraq's 3 distinct ethnicities. Saddam never gased his ethnically similar Suuni population. For a gauge with media exposure, Mubarak is as close to a legitimatly US endorsed Arafat as you can get.

    The Saudi royal family also had it's share of assassinations during those 30 years, but mainly from within. They assumed Saddam-like powers, but again, there's one distinct culture. They officially endorse an extreme version of Islamic law, the kind which most Americans despise, that extends to the restriction of women's rights, corporal punishment for immoral acts such as promiscuity and gambling, and other acts similar to Mubarak's practices for maintaining power and authority.

    Even Saddam didn't have a full 30 years. He similarly came to power as a result of assassinations. He also had the backing of the United States, though for only a half of his rule. His time ran out and his status became strained. When will Egypt and Saudi Arabia's time run out? Strained and unstrained relations with the US becomes quicker by the minute....

    To further alarm you about Saudi Arabia, in the first Gulf War, bin Laden went to the Sauds for backing of a home grown militia to liberate Kuwait. He despised Saddam because he considered him too moderate. Saddam was considered a secularist by these people.

    Sure, some of the "Far Left" will claim that an invasion of Saudi Arabia will inflame the Muslims, and they'll claim that foreign invaders are defiling and humiliating their homeland and people. But who cares...they said the same thing about Iraq where the Shiites had holy sites as well, didn't they? Wouldn't that be something the Anti-Left writer would agree with?
     

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