Why doesn't Trump talk about White Nationalism?

You showed the numbers of the KKK groups and Neo-Nazi groups but you must realize that a lot of White Nationalists...which are also extremists...don't associate with skinheads or KKK, they dress up in proper clothes and hide their racism.

And you pointing out the KKK numbers, for instance, is fine, but why any pushback to what many others, including multiple watch groups, are recognizing? That white nationalists and supremacists are using the internet to recruit and push their propaganda online? I don't understand why people are doubting this when it was well known that ISIS and others did the exact same thing, used the internet for recruiting and pushing their propaganda...

Yet when I bring this up I'm told I'm paranoid and dreaming up some conspiracy theory when the SLPC agrees, the ADL agrees, and multiple studies agree...and the data does show that it is rising, for it to be rising means something changed, doesn't it? Or did the violence just spike with no cause?

 

Hi

You're just going to ignore my post aren't you .

 

1. I believe it was Sweet Lou's Vox article.

2. This is what you do. You and the Vox authors don't want to paint a real and clear picture. You don't want to talk about real participation numbers. You want to cherry pick and be manipulative and use stats which indicate things like a "rise." - that drives clicks and pushes your agenda but is disingenuous and a disservice to the public.

If white supremacists killed 35 people in 2016 and killed 50 people in 2017. That indicates a 35% rise. That is math. What it doesn't encompass is that there are 200 million white Americans. 50 murders would account for something like 0.29% of the murders in the United States in 2017. Is that terrible? Yes. Does it indicate a large scale movement and crisis? No. Does it deserve alarmist article after alarmist article? No. Does it deserve some news coverage? Yes.

I don't watch Fox News or Tucker Carlson. I don't know what they have to say. I find those shows nauseating. They don't represent the GOP. I'm not going to watch their videos.

Show me something John Cornyn has said or done.

 

No, I agree that the internet is used by white supremacists organizations to recruit. That of course is a fact. The problem is there is no real data for us to have a conversation about. How many people do they reach and influence? What am I suppose to do with the word "rising"?

I cited the 2014 statistic about Stormfront. That indicated 900 American users on a daily basis in 2014. If you can show me how many folks are participating in white supremacist websites/forums I'd love to see it.

 

I suggest Facebook, Reddit and 4chan.

I also suggest following rhetoric rather than labels to determine the % of white supremacist supporters. So polling data, user rates in white supremacist riddled sub forums on Reddit and 4chan etc. How many card carrying KKK members are out there is a rather pointless stat.

 

Well, I can't speak to your anecdotal experience.

I can only comment on data and statistics. What do you want me to say?

I know the stormfront statistics.

If you want/can provide statistics on reddit or 4chan participation I would be interested in that information.

 

1st Link - Again, there are 200 Million white Americans - they proportionatly should make up the majority of terrorists in this country. Additionally, Muslims make up 1% of the population. They are disproportionately represented here.
2nd Link - not working.

 

You said you did "research"? Was this graduate research or your own research on your own time?

My problem with your "research" is you emphasize labels rather than rhetoric.

There are literally millions of people who believe in the IQ bell curve between races along with stating that nature, not nurture, is 100% completely responsible for it meaning a significant amount of people believe that black people are genetically predisposed to being "dumber". Yet, call most of these people white supremacists, they will be offended and outraged that you labeled them as such.

I wouldn't say my experience is an anecedote. It was 4 years entrenched in a rather well known popular right wing bubble. Marine infantry is a rather small community. Half of all Marine infantry regiments are in the base I was stationed in for 4 years. Many of these people I keep in contact with through Facebook. It's like a spiderweb of connections. I am constantly spammed with their reductive memes and I occasionally push back.

None of them label themselves as supremacists. All of then would be offended if you called them racist. I don't know why you are so fixated by with labels.

I think an accurate reflection of what social norms are acceptable and what trends we are heading towards is what a mainstream presidental candidate is willing to say and if what they say would ruin their election chances.

So when Trump, the candidate, went on stage and proudly in third person for the first time in American history made a declaration to ban an entire religious group from entering the United States, and his favorability amongst the general GOP population, not self-labeled white supremacists or racists, improves and pretty much everyone in my Marine Corps circle were so happy that they finally can vote for a candidate "that can tell it like it is", I realized our entire paradigm of race and religion in this country drastically shifted right.

I never thought a mainstream presidental candidate would even suggest such an absurd thing and let alone improve his chances of winning because of it .

 

According to this logic though then Islamic terrorism never deserved alarm either, the deaths still represented a small number and the amount of Islamists extremists still represent a small number of people of Muslim faith...that's not what we got though...

And while you do not watch Tucker Carlson, millions of people do and it's not even close here, he has more of an influence than a texas senator and I'm not accusing Cornryn of racism or being a white nationalist. I disagree with his politics to be sure but he's far from being the worst GOP senator IMHO, maybe some other liberals here disagree.

And I'm painting a pretty clear picture here, you just refuse to look at it.

Stormfront is outdated, again, these people realize their views aren't popular. They aren't going to congregate at places that are known for hate...but yes, as mentioned, look at the chans, both 4 chan and 8 chan gets millions of people every day, it's impossible to count how many of them are racists as the chans aren't exclusively used for racism and they don't have some user count for certain forums.

Gab, another place they congregate and where the Synagogue shooter came from had over 635k users by Sep 2018. Again, not everyone on Gab is a racist, I'm sure some people downloaded it, checked it out, moved on...

And there are multiple reddits who won't call themselves racists but basically upvote by the thousands the same DIVERSITY BAD! MUSLIMS BOMB! MEXICANS INVADE! BLACKS STEAL! memes on a daily basis. The_Donald is one of them...and don't even get me started on Reddit's spin off...Voat.

 

EXACTLY...and polls and research show that more people are believing this stuff. The 'Race Realism' and "Diversity Bad" and all these racist talking points are becoming more and more mainstream.

That is and was the exact goal of White Nationalists is to normalize this stuff so that it isn't even seen as racist but as fact, so that then they can get policy makers to address the 'problems' they've identified. I posted that Jared Taylor video before because he's the granddaddy of this stuff, of redressing white supremacism in a suit and tie and trying to make it seem like it comes from intellectuals. He was going on about diversity in 2011 and Tucker and Fox News is crying about it in 2018...

I will also add that White Nationalists ARE extremists, there is no peaceful solution to get what they want no matter how much they promise that they are for peace and love all races.

 

It wasn't graduate research it was research for a class, a writing seminar, where I spent the semester researching the history/current state of various white supremacists movements in the United States.

I got the opportunity to learn all about the history of the Klan, the Neo-Nazi movement and the Christian Identity movement. Mostly 1964 - Present. Post Civil Rights Act.

I gathered various statistic from various sources. The ADL, the SPLC... various pieces of literature written about the movements.

I understand the power and size of these movements relative to American history.

I'm always happy to find new statistics and information because it was/has been a challenge to try and find good numbers.

I'm fixated with the truth and with reality. I've done research, I've witnessed events, I've taken a hard look at the subject. White supremacists (since 1964) have never numbered more than negligible percentage of the white population in the United States. The low 10's of thousands by every source I've seen. Every white supremacist event has counter protesters ranging from 10 to 1, 20 to 1 or even as high as 100 to 1. They have no mainstream advocates, they have no political influence and they very much operate on the periphery of society.

 

Yup @HTM seems to be a victim of the "polo shirt supremacist" as in he has a serious blind spot to it.

The fact that a mainstream presidental candidate can declare a complete ban of a religious group from immigrating and that declaration improves his favorability, it's time for @HTM to stop looking at card carrying KKK members only. We've moved past that. 30 years ago, without our modern internet infrastructure , radiclizradica usually only happened in closed off groups like local KKK organizations. Today, an individual can become radicalized through sheer internet propaganda.

This **** has gone mainstream. When it goes mainstream, you don't have to place yourself in some extremist label. You can be considered a "moderate".

 

Uh, Ok?

Believe what you want. All you have presented are personal anecdotes and conjecture.

I brought statistics and facts. You are the one dismissive of the data. Look at the number of white supremacist event attendees? Nope don't care. Look at the number the SPLC believes are in the Klan? Nope doesn't fit my narrative. Look at the estimated number of Neo-Nazi's? Na.

I met some dudes in the Marine Corp you where totally racist so, you know, I know way better than you.

 

You didn't do research. You basically are making a claim of prevelence of white supremacist rhetoric by looking at self-labeled card carrying members of the KKK. Some undergrad Poli sci paper isn't proffesional research.

Just so you know, the New Zealand shooter would not be in your "data". Shows how absurd your premise is. A mass shooter espousing white supremacist rhetoric, who shot up 50 people because they were Muslim wouldn't even make your god damn cut off for being included in your data. He wasn't a card carrying KKK members .he wasn't a self labeled neo-nazi.

Like I said before, look at the rhetoric of what our political leaders say. That is a far more accurate reflection of the paradigms we live in.

20 years ago do you think a mainstream presidental candidate asking for a complete ban of a religious group from immigrating into the US would increase his or her favorability and increase their chances of winning the general election?

Do you think a president 20 years ago could make up a story about how a former general "handled Muslims" by shooting them with bullets dipped in pigs blood without severe reppercussions in favorability?

 

The New Zealand shooter wouldn't factor because he is not an American and I have only been discussing white supremacy vis-a-vis the United States in this thread.

I have stated many times that those who aren't members of those organizations likely add a significant multiplier to the numbers I've put forward. However, when you're starting at 0.00125% of the white population. It takes a lot of multiplies to get to a meaningful number.

Um.. What do you even think my "premise" is? I believe I entered this thread and expressed the opinion the "white nationalism" topic is such a bogeyman. Which I still believe. I base that opinion off of my reading and having looked into the subject. (I'll refrain from using the word "research" if that offends your sensibilities). I look at facts and statistics regarding white supremacists and the white population of the United States. I recognize white supremacists exist and are a menace but they should be viewed for what they are, an extremely tiny fringe of the white population.

If you have anything other than anecdotes and pointing Trump to support your position that they are something more than that I'm happy to discuss it.

 

Are white people allowed to have white pride? There is a clear line between racism and pride. People who have pride may stereotype, but that does not make them racist. Labeling anyone with white pride as a supremecist is an issue. Someone who supports radical ideas like white nationalism is definitely a white extremist.

Women can have preferences and say they do not want to date or deal with poor or average guys. That is there preference. When white people share similar preferences it is wrong? Why do certain groups have more power to choose than others?

So many tribes stick to their group, but when white people do it it becomes an issue. It is a small percentage in every group that are actually radical in there beliefs.

 

I want to support @fchowd0311 'Anecdotal' evidence as well because I actually read this story yesterday about how WNs since 2008 (An FBI report at that) have been trying to recruit military members.

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/...r-troops-sees-white-nationalism-in-the-ranks/
"Nearly one in four troops polled say they have seen examples of white nationalism among their fellow service members, and troops rate it as a larger national security threat than Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan, according to a new Military Times poll."

Again, to me this is like if you were a doctor and told your patient that they have a malignant tumor and that they could remove it but the patient shrugs and goes "Eh, it's small, what could it really do?"

I really don't know know how much more evidence is needed before people recognize that it is growing. We have Fox News pushing out the same narrative that White Supremacists were pushing out years ago and the President stamping his approval on their message...rising violence related to white supremacy...and White Supremacists leaders being caught telling you that their plan is to be secret and infiltrate arms of the government and people just shrug and go "So what? It's just a small number."

Based on what I've read and based on history, it really doesn't take a majority to uproot a country, but keep ignoring the tumor.

 

What I'm trying to say is there are 200 Million white Americans. There were 37 attacks committed by white supremacists in the United States in 2017 according to the data you provided. Those are the facts. So how do we interpret this data? What does it tell us about the state of extremist white supremacists in the United States? For me, It tells me there are some bad actors but they commit a fairly limited number of acts based on the size of their population. It's a problem but not the bogeyman some would make you believe it is.