Continues to amaze me how fans use individual defense stats that are so horribly bad. Nothing connected to +/- can measure individual defense,,,the rankings are all over the place. DRAPM is a Horrible Stat KAT is ranked 237th in the league at a -0.22 Courtney Lee #227 Mike Conley #206 Klay Thompson #282 Ariza #284 Kenneth Faried #309 Avery Bradley #345 -- All-NBA First Team Defense 2016 Sergio Ibaka #121 Luol Deng #136 Andre Iguodala #147 Caldwell-Pope #159 Jimmy Butler #119 -- All-NBA Second Team Defense 2016 Below Kyle Korver and Jeremy Lamb Paul George #75 -- All-NBA Second Team Defense 2016 Anthony Davis Omar Asik Kyle Lowry Dwight Howard Derrick Favors Tabo Sefolosha Below A'mare Stoudamire Tony Allen #39 -- All-NBA Second Team Defense 2016 Chris Paul #31 -- All-NBA First Team Defense 2016
HP, Morey said there is no good defensive stat out there. Nonetheless rapm is a decent objective measure imo. If you filter by position then the rankings make a lot more sense. Draymond best PF. Leonard and LeBron best sfs. Chris Paul #1 pg. Lowry #3 pg. Both Paul George and Butler are top ten at their positions. Tony Allen #2 SG. Ariza #7 sf two years ago before last year's meltdown By the way, in terms of predicting wins and losses, rapm is the best so far. There is some contest and the one the model that has worked the best is a player tracking version of rapm. Nylon calculus had an article about it. 538 switched to exclusively Box Plus Minus and I think it's gonna be terrible.
Morey is absolutely correct. Stats that can get some obvious things right, doesn't mean you use them. PER got things right too. But no one uses that anymore. It's still not good enough when there are shockingly bad outliers in every group. Point Guards Avery Bradley is #39 PG...he's All-Defense 2nd Team. You can't have such a horrible outlier and use a stat like that. Mike Conley is #17, and was #24 last year. Hell, Lin should not be #20. Shooting Guards Jeremy Lamb is #5 and Kyle Korver is #6. Both ahead of Bulter. You just can't have that and call it a reasonable stat whatsoever. How can those two ever be that high??? Caldwell-Pope is #16. Courtney Lee is #29. Small Forwards Iguodala at #20 There aren't 19 small forwards better than him. And there aren't 40 small forwards better than Ariza...certainly not Gallinari. Power Forwards I know these stats have led to ppl questioning whether we should ever mention Anthony Davis in the same breath as Hakeem again. But come on, Kevin Love is NOT a better defender. There aren't 15 guys better than Davis. Favors is below Love, too. Serge Ibaka is #37. Center Whiteside All-Defense 2nd Team is #12. Adams at #14 In no world are Marc Gasol, Horford, Asik, Tristan Thompson and Dwight Howard out of the top 25. And KAT is in bottom 10 centers? Tell that to Thibs .
Look Harden is a great offensive player, but folks arguing that he was not bad on defense are full of it. Harden coasted last year all year on D, he has to play better on that end for this team to do better. You don't need stats to see him out there conserving energy for offense. DD
It's because he's on the Rockets, the media and TMZ (not real media), and.. people don't watch basketball, they just watch a few ****ty YouTube clips and then are biased forever. Even if Harden became a defensive juggernaut it would probably take a few seasons or more before casual fans realized it. Also fta's per game is weak argument people make to hate him, look at the stars from the league and they all have high fta's per game (GOAT MJ included).
Yes, defensively the effort is lacking, but I wouldn't hate a star player over that. A lot of other guys get passes...
The thing is in Houston, our best players have always played both ends of the floor - James can play D, and it doesn't even have to be great D, just present...and some of the criticism will fade. No one hates him..they just have higher expectations for their superstar players. DD
It's called flopping and traveling. And if you ever mention Harden in the same sentence as Jordan again....
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I was a James Harden fan until last season. Reading he was out of shape for training camp to not riding a team bus, to him always talk the talk about doing things the right way but really continues to show disinterest on the defensive end or even in the playoffs he has not shown me that he can lead a team in the playoffs. Remember the WCF we had to play out of our minds in Game 6 at the Clippers house and by the way James was on the bench. I think as you read more stories about James it rubs certain people the wrong way. Hopefully he change and come out like a MVP caliber player again.
Do you remember reading and hearing from the coaching staff, before training camp even, why he was not in game-shape? Did you hear at the end of the year that Harden was basically playing on a bum ankle the entire year? As for the team bus, did you also read why he sometimes, sometimes being the operative word, does that? - to get to the arena at a certain time?! Are we still using that ONE game against the Clippers? Everybody, starting with Tjones at the end of the 3rd, caught fire...What about Game 7? - no way you win that, if Harden doesn't show up ...also in the WCF, the Rockets played the Warriors
last I checked.. Kobe, Jordan, Curry, Lebron all have championship rings, had/have the ability to absolutely take over a game and motivate them selves to reach the next level. Harden so far has disappeared in the playoffs, become a stat padder and show zero effort on defense and a lack of urgency or motivation to carry his team. I seriously doubt anyone hates Harden because of greatness cause he hasn't done anything to be referred to as "great".
Kobe career playoffs: 22.4 PER, .541 TS%, .157 WS/48 Harden career playoffs: 21.0 PER, .591 TS%, .170 WS/48
ROFL, tell me more about dissapearing in the playoffs, stat padding and so on. It boggles my mind how people go absolutely r****ded when giving Harden a fair evaluation. The double standards, false narratives, etc are simply unreal.
I like how Mr. Clutch tries to bring some reason to the Harden haters argument by citing one advanced stat, then gets absolutely obliterated by aelliot/HP/whoever is on the stat hammer patrol that day. This has happened like 2 or 3 times - In RAMCF (real adjusted mr. clutch fail) terms - that is too high to warrant further usage by you.
I'm not really disagreeing with anything you are saying. I mean every stat is terrible as in it will overvalue and undervalue some players wrongly. However, there actually are objective measures that Harden was worse last year, that's all I'm saying. And RAPM is the best stat so far. By the way, does this mean DD is right in only using the EYE TEST? Here's an article on Player-Tracking Plus Minus: http://nyloncalculus.com/2015/09/30/highly-plausible-nba-win-projections-2015-16/
That happened zero times, but I like how SamFisher can't keep up with the conversation, so he comes in and posts something tryhard where he sounds dumb. This has happened more than 2 or 3 times.
Why do you demand evidence of something that can be easily found using this site's search functionality? 1) aelliot and HP explaining to Mr. Clutch how to use filters on NBA.com/stats to not cherry pick so much: http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=274114&highlight=mr.+clutch&page=28 2) aelliot explains offensive rating to Mr. Clutch http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=274434&highlight=mr.+clutch&page=10 3) aelliot explains how "turnover %" is not the same as turnovers to Mr. Clutch http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?p=10413863&highlight=mr.+clutch#post10413863 4) aelliot explains how turnovers relate to wins http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?p=10354182&highlight=mr.+clutch#post10354182 5) aelliot explains how plus/minus works after he invented the concept of "negative plus minus" http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?p=10324445&highlight=mr.+clutch#post10324445 And, my favorite - here's where Mr. Clutch tries and fails to explain Harden as the greatest decliners in history, and thus dictating Klay Thompson love, who actually regressed a lot worse numbers wise last year. http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=272833&highlight=RAPM&page=5
