the phrase is "true PF." Gooden, Swift, Wright, TMass, Grant Long?? Pau didnt' play PF in Spain. We have a Spanish poster who drops in time to time, and he says look for Pau to start shooting 3s next year. arggggg. I really like Pau. You can tell that he is the best on the court within the first few minutes. He'll be better than Nitwitz. Just a much more well-rounded player. But in the games I saw, Wright and Swift are trying to be the frontcourt. They moved Battier into Dickerson's position. And now with Gooden, Pau doesn't need to play low post. I'd say that he has a chance to be one of the undefineables like Garnett who will play SF for awhile, or whatever you need him to play.
Yes, I believe the players that come from college (early entry) and high school in the US are lacking fundamentals. I think that's pretty obvious. You keep talking about post-up game, but for some reason are limiting it to "PFs". Do Sabonis and Divac not count because they're centers? I agree that all the PFs come from the states. The reason IMO is that that is where all the athleticism is. If you want to play down low, you have to be an athlete. Same thing with SGs.
I wonder how the Euro kid from Wake Forest will play. Darius Songaila.....he seems to have a nice power game. What was the Euro kid's name from UNLV? Kambala? Is he even Euro?
I'm limiting to PFs to make a absolute point. The BBS tends to respond to absolutes. The counter to them is then to employ the non sequitur (I have to stop using that word) logical trick to proove the underlying point wrong by stating one exception to the absolute. You've notice that, right? Oh, and the media likes to find bsolutes, too. The underlying point is it obvious from watching the tape of the Euro finals and observing how Euro players in the State play, there is a different game going on, and it isn't based on classic low-post. I don't understand that. No one calls Duncan, Brand, or Wallace amazing athletes more than Nitwitz. What about Mr. Mean? They are not all Garnett, Kwama, Amare, Wilcox like. And no one says Europe is devoid of athletes anyhow, so we should see SGs, too. I think the PF game is power and fundamentals as much as athleticism, otherwise Cato would be a better defender. Big and strong with good fundamentals is as valuable at the PF position as jumping is. Cato isn't good because his fundamentals are just bad. It isn't just an attitude thing. Cato also doesn't know how to play the game or he just doesn't bother to learn. No matter how athletic you are (Griffin) you will have trouble living in the paint sans power and fundamentals. The fundamentals of learning to succeed in the NBA requires learning to deal with power and speed. There are classic ways (fundamental ways) to live in the paint. It has to be taught and learned. Hence, the popularity of the big man camps in the States, and why CD and Mr. Mean are so valuable as coaches. Anyone who claims we don't teach fundamentals in the States is dismissing what it takes to succeed in the paint, and how you teach that. And where are all the PGs from Europe. No one wants to field that one.
Heypee, I agree with your premise about this topic, but I am curious about where you see the great usefulness of the big man camps and the inside development that comes from the NBA side of the US game... I guess I'm just not as convinced with the results from those two aspects where this talent is developed at. If the camps were the talent is being developed why wouldn't it benefit the European players just as much, assuming they're able to attend and going to sed camps. While I'll readily agree that it helps round out these player's inside games. I think the reason US players succede in developing these skills comes from learning at least the basis for these skills before they reach the NBA, most notably on the collegiate level. Otherwise I think the skills would just as easily be picked up by European players willing to put in the time and learn once they get to the NBA. What do you think?
I don't think this is obvious if you are implying this means there is proof that US fundamental training is on a decline. Historically, it is no different than it has ever been in the NBA. Raw talent comes out early, but well-groomed fundamentally strong players do, too. I don't understand at all why the media hypes that young players are a bunch of street ball kids with no organized training. It is just not true. Lebron James is highly regarded as a 5-tool player and great passer Eddie Griffin showed up with a classic understanding of shotblocking and nice range Mike Miller was a sophmore Lamar Odom was a sophmore (only 1yr playing, though) and probably NBA ready before that Tyson Chandler was one of the most groomed and fundamentally strong 7ers to come out ever Bibby was strong as a 19yr old Sophmore early entry SAR showed up with scoring range for a PF after one yr in college with immediate impact Jason Richardson--soph--shoots very well and great ball skills Guys like Troy Murphy showed up fundamentally strong, just too slow. Marbury had one yr in college and despite not being a pure PG he showed up with as much fundamentals for a PG as Parker did for sure. Parker is a penetrator, neither of them are the Kidd type Jason Kidd played only 2 yrs of college and was obviously ready to run NBA teams at early age than that Caron Bulter--soph is regarded as great all-around player Dunleavy is early entry with high IQ, great passer/shooter Jordan swears Jeffries--soph--is a strong on fundamentals, very smart and with great ball skills Kobe was about as groomed for fundamentals as it gets Garnett was a 7er who could dribble day one in the NBA Webber showed up as a great passer/dribller/shooter for a big man after 2 yrs in college Jalen Rose left a yr after Webber and was a Point Forward NBA-ready before that Anfernee Hardaway had only 2 yrs..and btw he was Parade HS Player of the Year with point forward skills and probably NBA ready like Tsika well before coming out <b>The trend continues. There are always 18-20 yr olds in american that exhibit sound fundamentals, high bball IQ, and NBA ready.</b> Just because power and creative playmaking are at a premium doesn't mean fundamentals are not being taught or learned.
heyp: I think what we need to do is not to cite all the good American players. Of course there are many American players with good fundamentals. The US is producing far more basketball talent than the rest of the world combined. Period. Apart from the sheer size of this country, the US is probably one of very few countries (if not the only one) that has basketball as their primary street sport. If only 10% of the young American players have good fundamentals, we will already have more good players than Europe even if all their players have good fundamentals. The issue is whether the *typical* kid is brought up with the mindset of getting their fundamental basketball skills, as the *typical* kid in Europe. I don't think so. The so-called "wake-up call" is simply pointing out that if we don't change the mindset of our youngsters, the rest of the world will slowly but surely catch up with us.
I am not anti-Europe at all. I am anti-"america lacks fundamentals" illusion from the media. Being from basketball country where I know the basketball factories starting in 7th grade exist and are alive and well, I take this a little personally. There are more organized training camps in the US than there ever has been. Illinois is still crowning HS champions for team ball, very sophisticated offenses and defenses. There are private schools in Chicago for the "street kids" to get formal training. Peoria Manual won an unprecedented 4 straight championships recently on amazing teamwork, great defense, not superstars. Oh, and here's another early entry for the list: Joe Smith--sophmore--was a gifted ball-handler/shooter for a big man.
Easy, The issue is the media is saying fundamentals aren't being taught in America anymore, because we are seeing more pure athleticism in the NBA. Seeing more athleticism in the NBA may be so, but we still have scores and scores of smart players at all levels at all ages. That list of mine from HS and early entries from recent drafts proves that the best are still very trained. The "wake up" call you mention happened a few years ago, too, when the GMs realized they had to start taking HS players, that they did have skills and fundamentals, and didn't need college. The wake up call for Europe is the same. A rise of bball in Europe (thanks to NCAA/NBA vets going there in droves--I might add) and the subsequent bigger pool doesn't mean America is on a decline in teaching bball. The trend seems to be bball's popularity has soared since the 70s. The trend seems to be the media glorifies the pure athleticism now. The champions are still crowned by team ball. There also seems to be a trend that defense wins now in the NBA, that you cannot win with the free scoring days of the 70s. The media is trying to say America had more fundamentals in the 70s, and we don't teach basketball anymore or the kids don't listen....and I don't buy it. The best players are still the best trained. Oh, this one doesn't fly at all. Many *typical* kids in the NCAAs are very smart basketball players. Illinois, by its lonesome, teaches more *typical* kids proper basketball than the top country in Europe. What do you think we do with 10yr olds in the YMCAs leagues in basketball country,,,just toss a ball out and say, go at it you *typical* kids. Parents want these kids to have the best training. The Illinois HS tournament is televised on WGN. It is BIG!!!! Parents want to see them in it. Cities take enormous pride in making it. These kids are taught early. An increase in the need for speed, power and athleticism does not mean training is on a decline in America. One does not mean the other. It is a non sequitur argument. (I used it again, ugh.)
re: fundamentals -- Would you not agree that there are now more underclassmen than ever entering the NBA? Are you saying that has NO effect on the level of fundamentals being exhibited in the league? How could it possibly improve things in that regard? Also, I can't tell if you're comparing Europe to the NBA or to college/high school. Europe should not be compared to the NBA, it should be compared to the US talent pool of draftees only. Back to power forwards, or post play, whatever -- Nowitzki is a good athlete. I don't think that disproves the point that most successful post players are long on athleticism. Duncan, Brand, and Wallace are good because of their God-given abilities more than they are for their fundamentals. Europe doesn't have those kinds of guys. Not sure why you're bringing up Cato....I'm not saying it's ALL athleticism, I'm saying that most good post men are also great athletes. So you think Nowitzki can't post up because he doesn't have the fundamentals? I would say it's because he's not strong enough and probably doesn't have the explosiveness of most good post players. I'm sure eventually though he'll become more crafty and be able to use a lot of up-and-under stuff. Besides, Dirk is just one guy.....we're talking about on the whole here, right? Why do you think you have to be able to deal with power and speed? Because all the good post men have that. They don't have power and speed in Europe, because they don't grow it. You keep bringing up CD and Mr. Mean, but they are NBA coaches. When people say US kids don't know fundamentals, they're talking about kids who come out of high school and college early. I have no doubt that CD could help a kid learn the post, but that would be AFTER he was already in the NBA. Again, I think you usually need exceptional quickness to be a good point guard, something Europe doesn't field a lot of.
I'm with HeyP, It's not that I don't like European players, or that I don't think that they are good, I just think that it is ridiculous that suddenly American players are just athletic freaks while Europeans are well-groomed players with great fundamentals. I also think that some European players are being drafted just because they have a distant chance of becoming another Dirk, Peja, or Gasol. Not every European with a good jump shot and decent dribbling skills can be as good as a Dirk Nowitzki. It's true though, some extremely talented American ball players just don't have very good fundamentals. But, I am sure that the same can be said for many foreign basketball players.
good discussion TheFreak and Jaybird. I'm going to answer thoughtfully, but I'm probably spending too much time on this during the week. let me get back to it later. I got behind on my other threads today....lol!!! One question I'd like to throw out is if you believe the NBA never played fundamentally sound ball? If not, when did it *used* to play fundamentally sound game. 60's/70's. Note the FG% of each era before answering. There are two ways to answer this...(1) when were the players individually more sound and prepared, and (2) when were the teams as a whole playing a more fundamentally sound "team game." Do you think one begats the other? more food for thought if you think the NBA used to be more fundamentally strong.... When did the top 4 teams in the league each year stop playing sound "team ball?" What about top 8 teams? Is the league rewarding bad play with quarterfinal appearances...semifinals?...finals? And finally, does defense have anything to do with team concepts, fundamentals, coaching and player training?? Or is it all "god-given" ability?
Does Europe even have classic PGs? I mean, if most of their players are decent ball-handlers, as the stereotype suggests, that might minimize the need for a single "floor general..."
Heypee, I'm not sure why you cloaked your "real" topic in the whole euro-pf-thing, but I think that when people critcize american players for a lack of fundamentals, they seem to use the word fundamentals as a code word for shooting form alone. And as far as no true pf (your psuedo topic) hehehe, pau is one. I watched many of his games here in memphis, and let me tell you they won't be putting him behind the 3 point line anytime soon. He plays very well with his back to the basket, and even though he gets pushed around some in the paint, he attacks the boards. He just might disprove your theory. hehehe
Just my two more cents about fundamentals. If you want to know which players have good fundamentals, watch them when they get old and creaky. If you rely only on your physical abilities, you are not gonna be very good when your body no longer responds to all your wishes. Michael Jordan can't do his fancy dunks no more (excuse my English), but he is still damn good. Guys like Kareem, Saboni, Stockton, Mailman are (were) playing at a very high level at 40. I predict (and hope) Shaq's game will drop like rock when his knees and ankles and toes can hold his 350 lbs no more.
Swift is likely to be traded or play off the bench, but most likely traded. Gooden last I heard will split time between pf and sf. Battier will come off the bench to allow gooden to start. They seem to think he is more mature and can handle coming of the bench and leading the second team. But rest asured that pau WILL play the classic pf postion. And at least one pf will be traded likey swift. Another suggested rotation is trying to work pau at the center spot. But this probably wont happen this year because pau needs to get a lot stronger.
