Who faced tougher defenders/defenses? Jordan or Harden? Debate/Poll

some folks just like to argue...

no matter how many people tell them they're wrong... no matter how many examples to the contrary are cited...

some folks just got their narrative and they're gonna defend it come hell or high water...

there reaches a point where it is no longer an exchange of views and opinions - its just a pig headed person that wont admit they were mistaken...


...smh... lol

 

when it's off...man it's just OFF bruh!

 

Talk is cheap. Show me what you got. I haven't seen any hard foul in the past 5 years in this flopping era.

 

My PJ point was that if PJ played in the 80's and was effective as a 6'5 PF with no hops, and you watched him on YouTube, there is no way that you would believe that he would be effective in today's game. He defies your logic about today's defender's being longer more athletic and more skilled.

My Gasol point again was that had you have watched a big, slow, lumbering Caucasian who was very good, but played in the 80's you would dismiss him as well because he does not fit your narrative.

I asked you to watch come fly with me because this isn't my first having this argument. There is a play where Jordan jumps off of two feet, catches a lob with both hands above the freaking square, and he looking down into the rim. Dude was taking off of 2 feet from outside of the lane and dunking on 7 footers routinely. Malik Monk has a 42ish inch vertical. Wiggins 43. I have never seen them get up that high. Only VC, Dominique Wilkins and oddly enough a young Gerald Green are in that vertical convo. It's not me romanticizing. It's called the eye test.

Same goes with Bo Jackson. I've have yet to see another back take a hand off and explode through the line as fast as he did. So again the actual eye test backs up the so-called mythical measureables.

You wanted to talk perimeter defenders and role players. I believe that the length and athleticism of the guards is one of your main points on why MJ had it much easier. Let's look at some of the best defensive guards in today's game:

Pat BEV elite guard 6'1
Avery Bradley 6'1
Marcus Smart 6'2
CP 6'0
Mike Conley 6'2
Tony Allen 6'3 (a few year's removed but same era).

3 pg's, 3 sg's. All considered to be elite defenders at some point. You stated in an earlier post that MJ was just shooting over 6'3 in guards.

Some Elite defensive guards from Jordan's era:

Michael Cooper 6'7
Ron Harper 6'5
Gary Payton 6'4
Nick Anderson 6'5
Mad Maxx 6'4
Mario Elie 6'5
Nate Mcmillon 6'5
Starks 6'3 (Tony Allen's Height)

I can do this with every position group from both eras if you would like.

Let's look closer to home with our Rockets. What grouping would be harder to score on because of length, skill and athleticism?:

94' Rockets

Dream 6'10- 6'11
Thorpe 6'10
Horry 6'10
Max 6'4
Elie 6'5
Cassell 6'3
Kenny Smith was the weak link at 6'3.

All could run and outside of Kenny they all had superior lateral quickness. Young Horry was a high flyer and a shot blocking presence next to Dream. Everyone in that front court could finish off a good defensive possession with a rebound as well.

18' - 19' Rockets

CP 6'0
Harden 6'5
EG 6'3
PJ 6'5(which is generous)
Clint 6'10
Rivers 6'4
Green 6'7

Which is longer more athletic group of defenders? Which group has more speed? Which group can grab a rebound after a miss?

Most of us believe that a team with Ariza and PJ as the starting forwards were set to dethrone the " greatest team of all time" before CP went down. Some of us thought that a team with PJ and EG should have finished them off this year.

That's what settled the 96' Bulls vs the KD Warriors debate for me tbh. I love our guys but if PJ, Trev, EG, Harden and CP can hold that team to under 95 points in 2 different playoff games, then a team featuring Rodman, Harper, Jordan and Pippen on the perimeter would have destroyed them defensively. PJ, Trev, EG and CP, were defensive gold versus GS in 17-18. But they aren't on the same level as Rodman, Pippen, MJ and Harper on the perimeter. And we had GS beat with a much smaller and less athletic team. And it wasn't due to our lights out shooting from 3. We were locking GS down defensively and getting defensive rebounds.

Just saying.

One thing about the role players. you and another poster mentioned that MJ was surrounded by far superior talent than Harden. Jordan didn't get Rodman until the tail end of his run. Scottie was more defense and athleticism, than offensive prowess. Jordan usually had one shooter, like Hodges or Kerr who came off the bench. He never had a center even as good as Capela. Who were these great offensive role players that Jordan played with? I will concede that the 72 win team was more talented defensively, but Jordan has never been surrounded by snipers like CP and EG who can also put the ball on the floor and get to the rim(EG) or could pull up for a mid range shot or create(CP). CP, EG Trev, PJ, Ryno, Clint, Nene and even Gerald Greene are vastly more skilled as shooters/offensive players than any supporting cast that Jordan ever had.

Now is this just more old head/ get off my lawn talk? Maybe.

I appreciate your position. You seem to be a die hard Harden fan, and you have put a lot of work in an effort to prove about 98% of the masses wrong. That's quite admirable. But if your case involves dissing the "era" in any way, you (and Morey) will only succeed in pissing people off. Until Harden shows regular season scoring efficiency during the playoffs and in big moments no one outside of HOF's will take you seriously. Until all of us old heads who watched Jordan die off, your argument will most certainly fall on deaf ears.

 

The 4-0 run that the warriors went on in the beginning of the 4th quarter of game 6 started with a curry blow-by move when cp3 tried to guard curry. Curry left cp3 behind the three point line on a blow-by drive to the basket!
cp3 proceeded to play ISO ball and go at the warriors to get the points back which was cool.

Then the Gerald green had a blocked three-point attempt where kevin looney blocked his three pointer...that was MURDER.

Then curry hits that baseline three on tucker, followed by missed rebound and Thompson hitting a dagger three.

You have stuff like that then it's a free throw contest. Basically, rockets don't get timely stops and warriors get stops combined with dagger three's.

 

Hand checking was legal when Jordan played....game was much better defended.

DD

 

Today you can give a dude 10 feet of space and he'll still miss the shot like 60% of the time. Back then even scrubs made a lot of their open jumpers.

Also back then, nearly every team had a hall of famer. Now half the league is literal trash.

The talent pool is more diluted with more teams now.

 

Seems you are in the minority. Sorry your so butt hurt. Must come easily for someone like you to have butt hurt put on you. Lol.

 

Cant argue with someone who has no argument. Seems small.

 

I never made a definitive statement regarding wether it was harder to score or not.Statistically(advanced stats as well) Jordon was very far ahead of his competition(all time as well except Lebron). Jordon raises his game in the playoffs. Harden's playoff performance(playmaking and scoring) take a noticeable dip there and that's just a fact. Like I dont know how you could watch player's like Kawhi(who Harden is better than imo admittedly) and think Jordon wouldn't be as effective, Jordon was MUUUUCH better as scoreer and playmaker than Kawhi. But honestly the problem with all this is you'll never really know. You have nothing to prove it would be definitively easier/or harder(at least among the greats) except with your eye test.The game was different. And that's the problem with what you are saying, you have to compare players relative to what they did in their eras. Players played under different circumstances with different equipment, schemes, rules. There's just too many different things to take into account to give a fair assessment.

Sure, passing is part of it man and being a versatile passer is great. But honestly when it comes down to it...the MOST important thing is how efficiently you can provide advantageous scoring opportunities for your teammates, which is what the stat tries to measure. It's not perfect you are right, but it doesnt need to be perfect.

I mean...honestly, yea, you could make an argument for him. See all the stuff you are talking about is great and all, but when it comes down to it, what's the point of being more versatile if you arent adding the same/better value as the other guy? His playmaking, however, is nowhere either of those guys though and neither is longevity which is why those guys(Lebron and MJ) are better than him.

I see what you are saying. But the problem there is that there is no quantifiable way to measure that. I could guess you could measure defensive ratings for teams per quarter with a high amount of team fouls, haha, that's interesting. Plus you have to take into account other player's ability to draw FTs and all that. But even then it's ultimately a moot point because if they both draw FTs at a similar rate than they provide a similar value in playmaking in that aspect and you could still use that stat compare MJ and Harden. though

I mean, you are right, I can't provide any definitive evidence. But the problem is neither can you..which is why comparing era's like this directly is a problem. Get what I'm saying? Sheesh, now i have to take a good hard look about Kareem as the GOAT now haha. But anyways it's fine man, we dont have to continue. We have a fundamental disagreement here.

 

Please post the clip of the dunk with MJ LOOKING DOWN into the rim from doc then.... i’ll wait



17:00 minute mark. Freeze it when he catches the ball. 2 foot jump, both hands above the square, looking down into the rim.

Now I will wait for you to tell me that it’s the camera angle.

I’ll also wait for you to post an in game clip of some of these 40-42 inch recorded verticals guys doing the same.

I have more if you would like. I’m getting older but I know what I saw. I’m not romanticizing lol.

Also if you watch early MJ look at how fast he accelerated through the air after he leaps. He gets off his feet and above the rim while most athletes are still gathering. A FREAK in any era.

 

Air Canada did you just compare MJs contorted body on a minimal head of steam with ball in hand-to jump to lebron's run and vertical jump without the ball?

I'd trust Dean Smith when he says MJ ran a 4.3 and UNC extensive data on not just one type of jump but true vertical tested at just under 46".
40 run can change of course with user error but thrres no doubt the black cat was his nickname for a reason. His first step with minimal dribble moves and lateral quickness shouldn't be questioned and theres plenty of eye test and footage.
BRON probably equal downfield speed with MJ having quicker burst and lebron gaining head of steam. Lateral quickness isnt even a question as lebron's pretty above average in that regard imo.

The vertical issue is much of MJs dunks are contorted body, hang time, leaning, two foot jumps and just plain jumping with the goal of putting the ball in the basket and not trying to be on espn slow mo highlight for his vertical.
Lebron mostly a sprinting one foot leaper aiming to get as high as possible including lifting the ball high to give added visual effect.

Also what kind of shoes was MJ wearing during UNC testing? More than likely flat footed converse with minimal cushioning and added height. I bring this up because MJ was 6'4.75 barefoot-as with Kobe. Lebron was 6'8 out of HS, but we know his shoes are very big soled and cushioned. And maybe hes even grown since HS? Maybe not. Modern day measurements are nearly all exaggerated. Scottie Pippen looks like hes 6'10 today on ESPN shows next to some guys who are listed at 6'8.

Point is you cant come to some conclusions based on 2 photos of 2 completely different runs and jumps and dunks with other unknown variables to consider.

I will say pure vertical speed and straight vertical leap Lebron is 100% top 3 greatest athletes bc of his size(still imo very exagerrated weight measurements). I still believe MJ is the greater overall athlete. Athletiscm isnt just defined by only what Lebron does elite-ie run fast in a bee line and jump straight up on a one leg jump.

Westbrooks athletiscm is overrated imo and hes usually seen as a elite top 3 athlete of today and example of "bigger,stronger,faster" players today. His athletic measurements are nothing special in any area. Hes explosive with an endless tank of stamina and one setting- "go."

DRose probably most athletic player ever. But in a 6'3 in shoes body and injury prone, doesn't really matter.

Even if you believe MJ competition was athletically inferior, drop him in today and hes still overall best athlete in his athletic prime imo. If not, at least top 2. *compared to other elite players of course. I dont care about some bench scrub or some journeyman athlete.

 

As far as original question. It's hard to say. Same with NFL. One eras defense is allowed to get away with lots of contact. Put them in today and they foul out or get called for flags every play until they adjust, but the elite will probably still be elite except elite today dont really shut anyone down. Elite defenders just seem to be elite for effort and containing to an average game or making big plays at key moments(kobe got by being considered an elite defender and defensive team awards when all he really did was play high effort level defense when it mattered while coasting the rest of the game-something I think lebron's done for damn near a decade now- with even declining effort in key moments these days).
Anyway, maybe they'd shut people down in the old eras if allowed. Who knows, but point is offensive players are just allowed way more freedom I think MJ would take full advantage of. And I've seen Harden get flustered and all but give up when players are allowed to be very physical with him. Much smaller players at times too.

One thing I know I'll take is the mentality of the old eras player over the mentality over most spoiled athletes of today, at least for a short while before all the money and lifestyle would spoil the old athletes too.