Where in Hell...

Giddyup;

I'm not a Christian but I admire and can sympathize with your religious quandry. I think as thinking beings it is natural for us to want to our faith to be completely rational. Unfortunately faith isn't rational and the power of faith is to go beyond the rational. I don't say this as a knock on religious beliefs and fully conced that my own spiritual beliefs aren't rational either.

In regard to your own quandry from what little I understand of Christianity the answer might be to trust that God is a loving God that will reveal himself to those who haven't heard the Gospel in other ways and that our concepts of time and space are meaningless to an omnipotent God.

If it makes you feel better as a Non-Christian I'm not concerned with the thought of whether I will go to Heaven or not because I don't believe in the Christian gospels. Its not a faith I share and knowing it makes no difference. That doesn't keep me from trying to do good in this life and in this life that's about the most we can do and then see what happens when we shuffle off the mortal coil.

 

Unless you speak Hebrew you're going to be reading an interpretation everytime. Not only that, but the scripture was written based on another time period and culture. Which means that if you want to understand what is going on in the scripture then you have to know the context it was written in.

It's kind of funny that you ask this question because today in convocation, I go to HBU, this exact topic was brought up. Anyways, at convo today they opened up by reading a passage out of the Bible. The passage was about a man, who was a tax collector, who knew nothing about Jesus or God. This man was extremely short and due to the crowd he could not see Jesus as he was passing by. So what he did was climb a tree, out of curiosity, so that he could see Jesus, and to make a long story short, Jesus goes to the tree, calls the tax collector by name and says, "I'm going to stay at your house tonight." And since you're a Christian I'll assume you know the implications of a Rabbi staying at a tax collectors house.

The speaker then went on to say that the reason this man was able to find God was because of his curiosity, and that as long as we continue to be curious we will eventually find God.

The speaker then started to tell us a real life story about a man he met from Albania. The background info of the story was that up until the early 1990s Albania was under a strict communistic rule. Basically, God, cars, and anything that could spark curiosity was outlawed. So.. skipping a whole bunch of stuff because it's 5 A.M. the pastor finds out that this man from Albania was able to find God because of curiosity even tho he had no idea God existed until he left Albania.

 

Nyeh, everything after the first paragraph is meant to answer giddyup's OP.

 

If I misinterpreted your question then here’s another answer:

From the Catholic Church's Vatican II:

"The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God's word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize."

5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church." 6

 

Very interesting reading so far. These type of questions are the reason why I have a hard time with religions. I guess I would like to believe there is(are) higher beings that created this world (big ban or whatever), but I have a hard accepting the literal interpretations of the various religions. I believe if people are kind and do what they blieve is right, god would not deny them entrance into His kingdom when the leave this world. Otherwise the god is no more than a petty jealous being.

 

This discussion really should start from what you believe about God and His omni-qualities. Do you believe He's always in control, that He knows the future, and that He created all things? The Reformed (Calvinist) view holds that God created everything, us and our environment. Therefore salvation and punishment was never attributed to the choices we make/made. He knew what we would do/believe before making us.

It then follows that our existence was never about the importance of ourselves, but instead the glorification of God. Did mankind accomplish anything that proves that they deserve a say in this? Reformists say that because that judgement call is up to God, the answer is no. Only God can judge what is fair. They hold on to the claim of being "elect" through grace alone.

Now concerning the "lake of fire", let's discuss the judgement prior to being thrown therein. First, the offender's name/ life story must be found in the Book of Life in order to escape it. If it is not, then the Book of works is referenced to mete out punishment. Here is where it becomes questionable, at least to me. Is punishment really for the rest of eternity?

There are some references in Isiah where the "smoke of their iniquity" will be seen forever. This could mean that the unrepentant's suffering is finite. He would cease to exist, but the memory of that "breaking of the law"/"justice through the law" would remain forever. So more sin requires more suffering, and eternal damnation may only mean eternal separation from God.

Obviously these questions won't be answered completely until later. But instead of basing your faith on what is unknown, cling to what has been revealed to you. Has He been faithful to His promises? Has His Word lost any of its authority? Have prayers been answered? If you've answered yes, yes, and yes, then trust in His Holiness, Justice, Omnipotence, and Omniscience concerning all these things.

 

I was in a Bible study group @ UT that taught that.

Never made sense to me.

 

giddyup --

these questions and smart answers aren't what makes me a Jesus freak. i don't have all the answers to these questions. i have some guesses based on who I know Jesus to be. i would highly suggest meeting with a pastor that you'd feel comfortable with. i'd volunteer rhester, but i don't think i have the authority to do that!

i know my wife very well. i've spent many years with her. it takes time to get to know someone. but i know her well enough now, that i can generally tell you how she'll react in any hypothetical situation with a high degree of accuracy. God is no different. you're seeking to know what He might do in this situation or that. you're seeking to know His heart, really. that's great. but it's not something you're going to get easy answers to off a FAQ checklist. these are questions that man has wrestled with for a very, very long time. people much smarter than me have come down on different sides of these issues.

my take on it: God loves the world. Jesus and his sacrifice on the cross is the pinnacle to prove that. Understanding God through the lens of Jesus Christ, I have a hard time believing that God condemns those who have never heard the Gospel, explicitly. But that's MY answer based on MY understanding of who Christ is. you need your own answer to that question.

 

You got that right, they say Jesus is the ticket to heavan. Of course the Muslims who worship God too say that Mohammad is his prophet and he has the ticket to heaven. They think Jesus was cool, but he didn't have the ticket. The Jews are still waiting for the Messiah to arrive with their ticket to heaven. The biggest problem with organized religion is every group thinks they have the one golden ticket to heaven. Believe us or your DOOMED!!!!!!!!!

 

Become a Buddhist and workout your own salvation.

 

Giddyup- If you are in the Greater Houston area I would be grateful to meet with you and visit.

You bring up a very important subject-

Jesus is the only way?
What about those who never heard?
What is God's judgment and how will it work out?
Is it all fair and loving; is it harsh and strict?

I feel in a personal meeting ideas can be discussed, questions can be asked, understanding can be sought without dogma, debate and division.

I have some thoughts on these hard questions.

God bless you.

 

Hey giddy;

Here's a good read on Salvation outside of Christ.

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ315.HTM

On Salvation Outside the Catholic Church
Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.

The Catholic Church makes claims about herself that are easily misunderstood, especially in the modern atmosphere of pluralism and ecumenism. Among these claims, the most fundamental is the doctrine of the Church's necessity for salvation. Not unlike other dogmas of the faith, this one has seen some remarkable development, and the dogmatic progress has been especially marked since the definition of papal infallibility. It seems that as the Church further clarified her own identity as regards the papacy and collegiality, she also deepened (without changing) her self-understanding as the mediator of salvation to mankind.

The New Testament makes it plain that Christ founded the Church to be a society for the salvation of all men. The ancient Fathers held the unanimous conviction that salvation cannot be achieved outside the Church. St. Ireneus taught that "where the Church is, there is the spirit of God, and where the spirit of God is, there is the Church and all grace." (35 ) Origen simply declared, "Outside the Church nobody will be saved." (36) And the favorite simile in patristic literature for the Church's absolute need to be saved is the Ark of Noah, outside of which there is no prospect of deliverance from the deluge of sin.

Alongside this strong insistence on the need for belonging to the Church was another Tradition from the earliest times that is less well known. It was understandable that the early Christian writers would emphasize what is part of revelation, that Christ founded "the Catholic Church which alone retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the home of faith; this, the temple of God." (37) They were combating defections from Catholic unity and refuting the heresies that divided Christianity in the Mediterranean world and paved the way for the rise of Islam in the seventh century.

But they also had the biblical narrative of the "pagan" Cornelius who, the Acts tell us, was "an upright and God-fearing man" even before baptism. Gradually, therefore, as it became clear that there were "God-fearing" people outside the Christian fold, and that some were deprived of their Catholic heritage without fault on their part, the parallel Tradition arose of considering such people open to salvation, although they were not professed Catholics or even necessarily baptized. Ambrose and Augustine paved the way for making these distinctions. By the twelfth century, it was widely assumed that a person can be saved if some "invincible obstacle stands in the way" of his baptism and entrance into the Church.

Thomas Aquinas restated the constant teaching about the general necessity of the Church. But he also conceded that a person may be saved extra sacramentally by a baptism of desire and therefore without actual membership by reason of his at least implicit desire to belong to the Church.

It would be inaccurate, however, to look upon these two traditions as in opposition. They represent the single mystery of the Church as universal sacrament of salvation, which the Church's magisterium has explained in such a way that what seems to be a contradiction is really a paradox.

Since the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 defined that "The universal Church of the faithful is one, outside of which no one is saved," there have been two solemn definitions of the same doctrine, by Pope Boniface VIII in 1302 and at the Council of Florence in 1442. At the Council of Trent, which is commonly looked upon as a symbol of Catholic unwillingness to compromise, the now familiar dogma of baptism by desire was solemnly defined; and it was this Tridentine teaching that supported all subsequent recognition that actual membership in the Church is not required to reach one's eternal destiny.

At the Second Council of the Vatican, both streams of doctrine were delicately welded into a composite whole:

[The Council] relies on sacred Scripture and Tradition in teaching that this pilgrim Church is necessary for salvation. Christ alone is the mediator of salvation and the way of salvation. He presents himself to us in his Body, which is the Church. When he insisted expressly on the necessity for faith and baptism, he asserted at the same time the necessity for the Church which men would enter by the gateway of baptism. This means that it would be impossible for men to be saved if they refused to enter or to remain in the Catholic Church, unless they were unaware that her foundation by God through Jesus Christ made it a necessity.
Full incorporation in the society of the Church belongs to those who are in possession of the Holy Spirit, accept its order in its entirety with all its established means of salvation, and are united to Christ, who rules it by the agency of the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops, within its visible framework. The bonds of their union are the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government and fellowship. Despite incorporation in the Church, that man is not saved who fails to persevere in charity, and remains in the bosom of the Church "with his body" but not "with his heart." All the Church's children must be sure to ascribe their distinguished rank to Christ's special grace and not to their own deserts. If they fail to correspond with that grace in thought, word and deed, so far from being saved, their judgment will be the more severe. (38)

Using this conciliar doctrine as guide, we see that the Church is (in its way) as indispensable as Christ for man's salvation. The reason is that, since his ascension and the descent of the Spirit, the Church is Christ active on earth performing the salvific work for which he was sent into the world by the Father. Accordingly, the Church is necessary not only as a matter of precept but as a divinely instituted means, provided a person knows that he must use this means to be saved.
Actual incorporation into the Church takes place by baptism of water. Those who are not actually baptized may, nevertheless, be saved through the Church according to their faith in whatever historical revelation they come to know and in their adequate cooperation with the internal graces of the Spirit they receive.

On both counts, however, whoever is saved owes his salvation to the one Catholic Church founded by Christ. It is to this Church alone that Christ entrusted the truths of revelation which have by now, though often dimly, penetrated all the cultures of mankind. It is this Church alone that communicates the merits won for the whole world on the cross.

Those who are privileged to share in the fullness of the Church's riches of revealed wisdom, sacramental power, divinely assured guidance, and blessings of community life cannot pride themselves on having deserved what they possess. Rather they should humbly recognize their chosen position and gratefully live up to the covenant to which they have been called. Otherwise what began as a sign of God's special favor on earth may end as a witness to his justice in the life to come.

{From The Catholic Catechism, Garden City, NY: Doubleday & Co., 1975, pp. 234-236}

35. St. Ireneus, Adversus Haereses, II, 24, 1.

36. Origen, Homilia In Jesu Nave, 3, 5.

37. Lactantius, Divinae Institutiones, IV, 30, 1.

38. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, II, 14.

 

Giddy, You have gotten a lot of good answers. My answer is probably not so different from MAx's.

First I will say that most questions of the spirit won't have the answers spelled out directly in black and white, and require some thought, prayer, research, reading, reflecting, more prayer etc. If there was a direct answer the bible would be very limited. It is because of the overall message and general mixed in with the specific that makes it so effective as a spiritual guide.

The way I see it is this. Jesus who is supposed to be the answer to most things is the way. Yet we know that God is love, and those that know love know God according to the bible. Each person should decide what is right and wrong, and live accordingly for each must answer to his master when the time comes.

Going back to Jesus, I would ask you this. Look at Jesus' life and the way he dealt with people. Would someone who asked the lord to forgive those who were crucifying him, stabbed him, tortured him etc. think it was loving or just to send someone who hadn't ever heard of him to hell for eternity? Would Christ, who preached that if someone hits you to turn the other cheek, and that you should love your enemy, that if someone sues you, to give that person everything and even more rather than contest the suit... would that son of God send people who had never heard of him to hell?

I think finding one phrase, chapter, or verse, and basing such a big spritual concept isn't really as valid as reading, studying, praying, and reflecting then judging based on a fuller picture would be more valuable.

I think in the end you will need to look at all the available information and come to your own belief based on what you believe the bible says about it.