This is one thing thats always bothered me. The scriptures do point heavily towards all non christians not going to heaven, but that is subjected to interpertation. You could also state that the bible is for Christians and those who are familiar with Christ. IMHO, the bible clearly states there will be a judgement day in which everyone will be judged. Regardless of what you believe or what you do, we all will face Christs judgement. I believe those who make it to heaven, Christian or not, will only make it through Christs mercy, no so much as if the followed a few steps that are commonly fought over in christian religions.
Hmm. I believe it's fact that the bible states there will be a judgement day, but it's your opinion (belief) that we will all face Christ's judgement. Just wanted to clear that up so your statement doesn't sound so blatantly arrogant.
I too think the the key here is what you mean by hearing about it. The bible says that those who know love, know God. I imagine there isn't a place in the world where folks don't know love.
What is the big fuss about salvation by faith alone? Faith in what? God? Okay fine, but most of the salvation arguments I've heard point to faith in Christ the Savior and a genuine request for re-birth as a Spiritual Being. Hard to do that without a knowleldge of Christ, isn't it? The notion of infallibility and inerrancy of the Bible irks me. Tell me more if I am missing something....
Sad to say but easier to overcome that than to overcome complete and utter ignorance of The Gospel-- like some 19th century pygmy in a rainforest somewhere. Where in hell are they?
I guess I'm still not getting the point of the post, giddy. Are you suggesting that those who haven't "experienced/read/fill-in-the-blank" the Gospel are having some sort of problem? Or creating some sort of problem for others? Are you attempting to do a census? Just curious as to what motivated the question. Keep D&D Civil.
From The Catholic Encyclopedia; on hell [rquoter] Hell (infernus) in theological usage is a place of punishment after death. Theologians distinguish four meanings of the term hell: hell in the strict sense, or the place of punishment for the damned, be they demons or men; the limbo of infants (limbus parvulorum), where those who die in original sin alone, and without personal mortal sin, are confined and undergo some kind of punishment; the limbo of the Fathers (limbus patrum), in which the souls of the just who died before Christ awaited their admission to heaven; for in the meantime heaven was closed against them in punishment for the sin of Adam; purgatory, where the just, who die in venial sin or who still owe a debt of temporal punishment for sin, are cleansed by suffering before their admission to heaven. [/rquoter] on limbo [rquoter] Though it can hardly be claimed, on the evidence of extant literature, that a definite and consistent belief in the limbus patrum of Christian tradition was universal among the Jews, it cannot on the other hand be denied that, more especially in the extra-canonical writings of the second or first centuries B.C., some such belief finds repeated expression; and New Testament references to the subject remove all doubt as to the current Jewish belief in the time of Christ. Whatever name may be used in apocryphal Jewish literature to designate the abode of the departed just, the implication generally is that their condition is one of happiness, that it is temporary, and that it is to be replaced by a condition of final and permanent bliss when the Messianic Kingdom is established. [/rquoter] I go to the Catholic sources because many of these ideas are; Discussed and interpereted to general understanding during the period before protestantism. Catholicism seems much more concerned with the details and actual manifestations of many of these subjects than many protestant modes of thought. In any case the two articles give a very nice detailed account of the history of the ideas of hell and purgatory respectively. Personally, I think much of the detail about Satan and Hell which has been infered from biblical writings is of dubious authenticity. The name Satan translates from somewhere as 'the adversary' and never refered to any more than obliquely.
Deckard I guess I'm still not getting the point of the post, giddy. Are you suggesting that those who haven't "experienced/read/fill-in-the-blank" the Gospel are having some sort of problem? Or creating some sort of problem for others? Are you attempting to do a census? Just curious as to what motivated the question. giddyup: No, I have the problem. I struggle with significant parts of the central message of the faith community in which I participate. I'm looking for better or alternative understanding. I feel like ahypocrite sometime. I can co-exist but it's a little dis-satisfying to have all these doubts about things that I hear. Do people really believe and mean some of the things they profess or do they feel about this the way that I do. I know I'm rambling here, but the kind of central message that leaves me clutching is something like this: "Through Christ all things are possible." Oh, really? I go to a United Methodist Church not a Pentacostal Holiness church or anything like that. I'm not here to challenge anybody's understanding of theses matters-- other than disourse of course. I just want some better answers than I have.
Go to the source- The Bible; what does it say? Don't listen to someones interpretation, opinion or what someone else thinks it should say. The Bible is the true word of God. Go to the source - it's as close an answer as you'll get as if you were speaking to God directly.
My that's a large Book. Will anyone really find ONE answer? Which translation should I choose to read the "true word of God?" I'm not meaning to be disrespectul but these are questions that have always begged to be asked? Old or New Testament?
You go to a moderate, mainstream church, one I'm at least a little familiar with. I certainly can understand where you're coming from. I've never regretted "blowing off" this stuff, being agnostic. It simplifies my spiritual life. I've had friends who've wrestled with their own doubts and confusion about "faith" and "God." Some still are. It's not an easy thing for a lot of people. Thanks for the explanation, giddy. Good luck! Keep D&D Civil.
Let me say this..these aren't easy questions, so don't expect easy answers. And don't expect all the answers to "taste good" going down. Ming suggested picking up the Bible..sounds simplistic, but it's true. Your response was a fair one..."geez, that's kind of a big book." But his answer still stands. These are "religion" questions you find yourself asking. Almost philosophy questions. Real faith has little to do with sharp quick answers to challenging questions. But ask them of God. Seek Him out. See what happens. But seek relationship first...not answers to tricky questions. Christians differ on how the answers to these questions...they're neat little discussions. But the fact is, you HAVE BEEN exposed to the Gospel. So YOU do have a choice.
No disrespect taken. I appreciate the fact that you're searching. The reason I didn't quote verses in my previous post, is that I'm not trying to influence you. Let the Lord show you. Pray that the Lord would reveal the answers to your questions. However, since you asked, I would recommend beginning in the New Testament, as Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life and no one gets to the father but through me," so if you take the Bible literally - there is no other way.
Can we talk a little more about Jesus? That's a stumbling block for me. I am awestruck by natural beauty. I can conceive of a Creator of the Universe. Call him God or call him Allah; it matters not. I am humbled by it. But people keep putting Jesus to the forefront in my experience. There have been lots of humans to walk this Earth who never heard of Jesus. The doctrine of Salvation by Faith in Jesus Christ leaves them outside of Heaven when their life ends. Can someone explain that to me? Were all humans doomed to hell before the life/death/resurrection of Jesus? Max, I know that you've described yourself here as a "Jesus Freak." No pressure, man, but I need some better answers than the ones I have. Either mine are inadequate or I am asking the wrong questions...
do you have a pastor at your church you feel comfortable talking to?? in the end, i can tell you only what I believe to be true and who I know Jesus to be to me.
And what about that 19th century pygmy to whom I referred earlier? Is s/he in hell due to absolute and innocent ignorance of Jesus Christ?
Not really; I'd feel like a heretic. I don't want to be that in my own church community. We take turns teaching our Sunday School class. My turn is coming up and I am the one usually asking questions that make people uncomfortable. That goes far enough for me. Maybe I can find a man or woman of the cloth outside of my own church? I have to suggest that part of my problem is that in spite of fitful efforts on my part, I have no lasting personal relationship with Christ. I've asked. I've recanted. I've asked again. I"ve laughed it off. I question myself and the cycle starts over. This has gone on for two decades. It's a perfect form of Satanic dialogue. Is this just the way the human mind works or this this really the interference of The Trickster?
