What will it take to get J.R. Richard's number retired?

Hell freezing over?

The Astros have too many retired numbers. Maybe that's one of the reasons they don't honor JR like they should. They retired too many jerseys as a young franchise. The Yankees have hall of famers whose numbers aren't retired.

 

Officially retired:
5 Jeff Bagwell
7 Craig Biggio
24 Jimmy Wynn
25 Jose Cruz
32 Jim Umbricht
33 Mike Scott
34 Nolan Ryan
40 Don Wilson
49 Larry Dierker

Unofficially retired:
17 Lance Berkman
57 Darryl Kile

I am not a fan of retiring numbers ... more of a fan of "honoring" numbers ... maybe with the exception of retiring number when a player enters the Hall of Fame (Bagwell, Biggio, Ryan)

Other players that could be honored are (all WAR with Astros):
Cesar Cedeno (49 WAR)
Roy Oswalt (45 WAR)
Joe Morgan (30 WAR)
Billy Doran (30 WAR)
Terry Puhl (28 WAR)
Bob Watson (23 WAR)
Joe Neikro (23 WAR)
JR Richard (22 WAR)
Shane Reynolds (19 WAR)
Ken Forsch (19 WAR)
Roger Clemens (17 WAR)
Billy Wagner (16 WAR)
Mike Cuellar (13 WAR)
Moises Alou (13 WAR)
Dave Smith (13 WAR)
Joe Sambito (10 WAR)

Astros Pitching WAR leaders
Astros Batting WAR leaders

Fun fact: In about the same number of innings Don Wilson outperformed Nolan Ryan in WAR.

 

Bingo. And retiring the jersey of a player like J.R. only adds to the problem; nobody loves Mike Scott more than I do; I can recite his 1986 pitch log from damn-near memory.... his jersey should not be retired. Neither should Wilson or Umbricht's. And add Richard to that - build monuments that outline their (limited) impact on the team. But save jersey retirement for legends.

And I'll offer this hot sports take for free: I don't believe Nolan Ryan's jersey should be retired, either. He had too many big career moments with other franchises. I think playing all of, or at the very least, the vast majority of your career with the franchise should be one of the prerequisites for a jersey retirement.

Bagwell and Biggio should really be the only retired jerseys. Cruz and Wynn have walls in the stadium (and TREMENDOUS walls, I might add - whoever created and wrote those is a GENIUS!) Dierker would be the one other number you could probably talk me into, given the broad impact he made on the franchise - player, broadcaster, historian, manager... But you'd have to be really persuasive and I'd have to be either drunk or sitting next to Dierker at the time of your pitch.

 

Here is the Astros WAR for the retired players:

Officially retired:
5 Jeff Bagwell (80 WAR)
7 Craig Biggio (65 WAR)
24 Jimmy Wynn (41 WAR)
25 Jose Cruz (51 WAR)
32 Jim Umbricht (5 WAR)
33 Mike Scott (25 WAR)
34 Nolan Ryan (25 WAR)
40 Don Wilson (28 WAR)
49 Larry Dierker (34 WAR)

Unofficially retired:
17 Lance Berkman (48 WAR)
57 Darryl Kile (7 WAR)

Astros Top 50 WAR Batting
Astros Top 50 WAR Pitching

 

Jersey retirements were a sure-fire way to get close to a sell-out for games at the dome... especially in the lean years where attendance was struggling.

 

Biggio
Bagwell
Cruz (largely b/c of the love)
Ryan (same reason)
Dierker (original player + broadcaster + manager)

That's it. Have a "Hall of Honor" slash museum in the LF walkway for the rest of the Berkmans and Cedenos.

 

I don't think for one second the Astros retired a number to increase attendance for one game. That's ridiculous.

 

It wasn't the primary reason, no... but it certainly was a part of engineering the whole experience.

When you're still a relatively young franchise, without the rich history of titles and generations upon generations of fans.. teams tend to over-honor their initial great ones in order to try and jump-start the historical portion of their franchise.

They've since curtailed the practice... in a much welcome fashion.

 

I cannot hear you from the hermetically-sealed, nuclear-fallout-level shelter from which you broadcast that take.

 

I'd agree with you on his merits as an Astro, except there's the hometown hero thing. Nolan's a ridiculously popular icon (to a lesser extent see Jose Cruz) and that does count for something.

 

Umbricht was a little before my time, but I'm surprised I never heard or remember hearing about his story. Since his cremated ashes were spread over the construction site of the Astrodome, however, it would be hard for me to argue that the franchise should "unretire" his jersey.

 

Yeah; I recognize there's likely no way to have a rational discussion about Ryan - but leaving aside the merits of any ancillary considerations, as a player, his number should not be retired, IMO. Interesting fact: Nolan Ryan, baseball's strikeout king, only led the league in strikeouts twice in his 9-year stint with the Astros, same as his 5-year stint in Arlington. Also, the no-hit king threw only one no-hitter in Houston; six between California and Texas.

I just think the Angels and Rangers could lay as much "ownership" of Ryan as the Astros and that, IMO, matters. Had those final five Arlington seasons happened in Houston... I'd probably feel differently.

Cruz, like Dierker, would be a tough cut because of how insanely popular he was and because of his long tenure with the team. Plus, he caught my first pitch a few years ago and saved a wild pitch so I have a tremendous soft spot for him. But, honestly, Cruz wasn't an appreciably great player. He was very good - but not "jersey retired" good.

 

Decision to retire Ryan's number is very similar to the Rockets decision to retire Drexler's.

While Clyde spent less time with the Rockets, and was far and away another franchise's icon/best player ever, he did reach a level of accomplishment here that certainly influenced the owner's decision... and add the hometown/UH portion of his career as well, and it can certainly be defended.

 

Biggio, Bagwell, Ryan, and maybe Dierker. Wayyyy too many retired numbers.

 

Add me to the list of people saying we've already retired too many. Really we only have 2 guys that are clearly worthy of that honor. Jose Cruz and Nolan I'm also kind of OK with because one is a Texas icon, and the other was basically Mr. Astro for the rainbow era.

If we were going on merit, and worthiness compared to other retired numbers, Oswalt, Berkman and Cedeno are inarguably worthy of jersey retirement ahead of JR.

 

Inarguably? I see plenty of room for argument, especially where Berkman is concerned.

I've argued that JR Richard wasn't "jersey-retirement" great--but if one goes by the standards the Astros have set, it's a travesty that they haven't retired his number. His career as an Astro is better than Ryan's or Oswalt's (minus the postseason success of Roy O). Dude was the most feared pitcher in the league for a while, and as a cherry on top, absolutely owned the Dodgers in an era in which the Astros and Dodgers had a bit of a rivalry. Also, his Astros' career ended not in free agency or trade but in a life-threatening situation, one that the Astros handled very poorly.

 

I am curious what your basis could possibly be for saying JR Richard was a better Astro than Lance Berkman.

And he wasn't as good as Oswalt, not even close. He pitched in a much easier era for pitchers, and at an extreme pitchers park (check the home road splits)

 

I'm sorry, but as good as JR was for those last 4.5 seasons, he was also a walk machine. JR's stroke season is the only season his ERA+ exceeded Oswalt's Astros career mark of 133. To say his Astros career was better than Oswalt's is just silly. Ryan and JR have almost identical numbers as Astros players.

Ryan: 106-94 3.13 ERA 110 ERA+ 2.87FIP 1.206WHIP 3.9BB/9 9.1K/9
Richard: 107-71 3.15 ERA 108 ERA+ 2.86FIP 1.243WHIP 4.3BB/9 8.4K/9

Oswalt: 143-82 3.24ERA 133ERA+ 3.35FIP 1.196WHIP 2.1BB/9 7.4K/9

Before the stroke, JR was on the path to a Sandy Koufax-esque season. If you needed a no-hitter, you'd have a hard time doing better than JR. His career ended tragically, and he may have ended up the best Astros pitcher ever, and that 1980 season might have finished up better than Scott's 1986 (or Roger's 2005 or Unit's 1998, and probably should include Pettitte's 2005), but that deals in what ifs, which we can't do.

 

I do remember that he was a walk machine. Thing is, the walks didn't hurt the teams W/L record or his ERA.

But the numbers bear it out -- I must have "misremembered" (to borrow from another from Astros pitcher) regarding the numbers -- Roy O is indeed clearly superior.

Perhaps I'm misremembering regarding Berkman, too. He was a legit HoF threat in his prime, assuming he could keep it up. But, he didn't. I don't mean to argue that JR is clearly better, just that I don't think it's such a slam dunk.

People forget, even before that '80 season, how intimidating Richards was. Sure, part of it was because of fear of getting drilled with a will 100MPH pitch. But dude was an incredible and dominant pitcher.