[Trump] An invitation for Evangelicals to Debate the Merits of Supporting Trump

Yeah I completely agree with pretty much everything you’ve said and the assessment of the perceived cultural wars.....that’s why I’m thinking this has to do with education, teaching and discipline within the church.

I have two advanced theological degrees and enjoy a robust debate with anyone on the bible. And I still find it hard to really pin trump supporters on their theology. When I start honing it in, they typically disengage which tells me they’re no longer comfortable having their worldview challenged biblically. Which in turn tells me they’re more devoted to their worldview than they are the Bible.

 

this is deeply flawed theologically. You might be speaking from a policy perspective and what’s good for America, but you are not speaking from what is reflective of what Scripture says. There is no basis in the Bible for what you’re suggesting.

 

I have some things to say about this. Among other things I’m a business owner too. One food retail and one service (counseling practice). I have a lot of thoughts on doing business as a Christian. It’s another area where, like engaging in politics, a Christian really needs to understand their theology in order to walk the line well. Unfortunately what happens is a lot of democracy or capitalism infects Christian thinking and they way politics and business are handled.

But alas I must disengage this interesting discussion. I have to go to this thing called church now.

 

yes I’d love to break this down further, but I’ll get back to this later today. Need to get the kids ready and out the door for church.

 

The order of priority isn’t the problem. I agree, there is reason to believe that the bible supports a relationship with God as first priority, then marriage, then kids, then church, then culture & community.

That’s not where the flaw is though. I think you make a jump between prioritizing and protecting. And a jump between how to love each of those groups well and protectionism. And then another jump from helping immigrants and refugees to a threat that requires protectionism.

At the end of all those logic jumps is the need for protectionism. So you’ve tied a theological principle of loving God, family and neighbors in that order to justifying a protectionist mindset. Which protectionism has never been a Christian tenant of faith. That’s no where in Scripture. In fact quite the opposite. Christians are called to risk themselves and sacrifice for the sake of loving others.

But to your point of not being able to help everyone. There is merit in the Bible for Christians not enabling destructive behavior. Being a “good Christian” doesn’t mean rolling over to help everyone that asks or needs help. It requires discernment to know how to help and love others in ways that does not end up destroying them. It’s the same principle for parenting. To love well means knowing when to say “no” for the sake of your children’s own growth and maturation. But the common denominator is love. What is best for the person you’re called to help and love. The posture comes from love and what’s best for others, not fear or protectionism.

In practical terms, would I allow a refugee or someone homeless to sleep on the floor of my kids room? No of course not, but that wouldn’t prohibit me from being able and willing to help in other ways. That might take resources and time away from my family to do so, but I have to discern how much I can do. And indeed my faith dictates that to some degree I ought to. But I have to discern that out of love and sacrifice. Not fear and the need to protect against. And not out of a scarcity mindset where we only have a limited resource and have to protect it to provide for “our own”.

protectionism/fear and a scarcity mindset are more nationalistic based. There’s no Christian basis for either of those.

 

i think the disagreement is that your point isn’t a “Christian” one. You can certainly argue for limits and border control, but you can’t tie that to any biblical concept in Christianity. The two are unrelated. It doesn’t mean your point of limits is invalid on its own. It’s just not based on anything biblical.

 

1) your example isn’t comparable one. Making a wedding cake for a gay couple isn’t the same as placing a hateful message on that cake. It may be offensive to the Christian baker, but my contention is that it shouldn’t be. I’ll explain why in my break down below.

2) as a sole proprietor, you’re right you can set the terms of your business. From a free market standpoint you could argue that you have the right to refuse service and allow the market to dictate whether you’ll be able to stay in business. But from a Christian standpoint, there is no basis for refusing service to those whose lifestyles you don’t agree with. Let me explain why:

Let me break this down from three points of view that I look at the issue as a Christian.

Role #1 (Business Owner): my primary job function in this role is to serve food (or desert) in my context. If someone asked for a catered event at a same sex marriage or for me to vend at a gay pride parade (both of which have happened), as a Christian I have to be comfortable enough in my theology and faith to intersect with a culture and community that doesn’t think or believe the same way I do. Bringing my own Christian values into how I conduct my business really can only be applied to how I conduct myself, not how I think others ought to conduct themselves. Especially considering that it should not be alarming or offensive to me when an unbeliever acts or behaves in ways that aren’t “Christian”. That’s part of my role by being willing to intersect and engage an unbelieving community. It’s my choice to engage through business so I have to be okay with stretching my comfort level. Just as an aside, I actually hired a GM that’s gay and in the last year has transitioned genders. Eventually sold my business to him. He’s a friend of mine to this day and has helped me to understand and have more compassion and understanding of the LGBTQ community.

Role #2 (counselor): in this role I continue to engage a community that does not necessarily share my beliefs. While a portion of my case load are Christians. Many, if not most, aren’t. So I have done couples/marriage counseling for same sex couples. I don’t have a problem with it because my job as a licensed professional requires me to engage in areas of culture that don’t see things the way I do. Now I can choose to only be a “Christian counselor” and choose not to see such couples, as I’m sure they’d probably not want to see me if that were the case. But as a Christian I feel like I’d be losing out on an opportunity to stretch my own thinking and compassion.

Role #3 (pastor): in this capacity I work for a religious institution and because of separation of church and state, I can and have opted to not perform same sex marriages. Because of my religious views and because the request for a marriage ceremony falls under my authority and role within the Church, I can’t perform this function without violating the role itself. But in this context, it’s when the culture seeks to enter into and engage the Church. Whereas roles 1 and 2 are me engaging the culture. The more I reach out in my roles to engage, the more I have to be willing to stretch. The more the culture moves into Church, the more it must stretch. It’s a constant dance of transformation through compassionate dialogue.

Christians are called to transform culture through engagement and that means engaging in places where people do things that aren’t “Christian” which shouldn’t be surprising because, well because they’re not Christian.

The principle I was taught in my course of missions is, the more confident and secure you are in your core doctrine and theology, the more you can venture out into culture and even blend in by participating in some of the customs that might feel “unchristian”. But conversely, the weaker you are in your theology, the more you have to fear and protect against the culture that doesn’t think or act like you.

- To a Jew I became a Jew, the gentile I became a gentile.

So bottom line, if serving a gay couple a wedding cake is offensive to your Christian sensibilities, you shouldn’t be doing business in the market place where you’re required to service people that think and act different from you.

If you’re a Christian that owns a business you have to be able and ready to walk the line between Church and culture. If you can’t walk the line, then choose. Run it purely as a business. Or don’t go into business. Capitalism and Christianity don’t mix well if you don’t know how to walk the line.

 

This right here is the problem though. The Bible can be used by anyone willing to disregard its proper theology to justify personal agendas that were never Christian. And those with poor theology will hear it and assume it to be a Christian principle when it’s not.

the crusades and slavery were justified through such means. My point isn’t that your position on border control is wrong. My whole point in this thread is that Christianity is used as a tool to justify agendas under the guise of Christianity. Which for me as a Christian is offensive because it pollutes the message of the gospel.

But to your specific point about the Bible not supporting Christians give up everything, while I do think through wise discernment you can get o being able to set boundaries and say no when it’s the most loving thing you can do for another, I actually think the Bible is more directly blatant about sacrificing everything.

that is PRECISELY what God did through Christ did for humanity. He gave up everything to save us. But here are some more specific verses that articulate this Christian principle. These are just a few. It’d be much more difficult to find a verse in the Bible that justifies looking out for yourself before others. It’d certainly be a stretch to argue that that’s what the Bible argues for.

1 John 3:16 ESV
By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.


Mark 10:45 ESV
For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Philippians 2:17 ESV
Even if I am to be poured out as a drink offering upon the sacrificial offering of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all.

Ephesians 5:1-2 ESV
Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

Luke 9:23 ESV
And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

Philippians 2:3-4 ESV
Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.