Sorry but resigning a FA is alot different that signing a top notch FA. Many people will stay in places for less because their family is settled and it is easier to stay put than to goto a new place. It's not necessarily only Houston who has players signing for below market value, it happens to about every franchise, except the NY Yankees who overpay for everything. Also if Boston (who I agree is a stud WR) wants to go somplace why doesn't he goto Clevleand, he played College ball in Columbus, so apparently this state isn't too bad! Again sorry I am not a fan of either the Texans or the Browns but I do see similarities in both teams. Both started off in a new stadium with a franchise QB as the first pick, with an existing fan base who got hosed when the previous owner moved the team. As for Flowers nope I don't consider him a good safety. Safeties are a dime a dozen in the NFL, alot of good CBs end up there once they lose a step (Ronnie Lott, Woodsen from the Steelers/Ravens). He is average to above average but I would not catgorize him as a good safety. Most expansion teams by the end of the third year have totally overhauled the roster from year one. There are key peices still there (and I would guess for the Texans Carr, Young, Sharper, Glenn, Gaffney (sp?) and maybe Boselli will still be around). Throughout the next few years they will add top notch talent via the draft, sign some more serviceable FAs, while at the same time disposing of some vets for cap room/draft picks.
well, technically speaking, that's baltimore's history now. the browns, v2.0, dates all the way back to 1999. and the raiders? there are better fans in football; if, however, you're talking about their propensity for dresing up in costumes... well, i'd love to meet the player who signs with a team because their fan base consists of a bunch of ass clowns. as for CLE having a better fan base... that's true, but then again, it's the same fan base that pelted officials with beer bottles (not the first such incident in cleveland). not in the salary cap era, they don't; they go where the money is, and few teams have money, especially teams who win (because they have to pay their own players). case in point (just off the top of my head), az hakim and bill schroeder each left STL and GB, respectively, to sign with 2-14 DET; trotter left PHI for WAS, a definite downgrade; starks left BAL for one of football's worst-run franchises (ARI); dunn left TB for ATL; and of course, bradford, mckinney and wong each left more stablished teams to come to houston. and those were among the bigger FAs available, too. the idea of players signing with a team so they can win is a thing of the past. i specifically mentioned the NFL audience watching (aka players and agents), and the reason for the large viewership had nothing to do with dallas or houston but because they had played earlier in the day. what they then saw was a mighty impressive performance from houston (team and city). i can't imagine a prospective FA not watching that game and at least thinking about houston as being viable. you're leaving out gary walker, seth payne and jermaine lewis, who have all been extremely productive as texans and were starters (with an asterick for lewis, who "started" on special teams) last year. it took cleveland three years to acquire talent anywhere near the level of boselli, young, sharper, lewis, payne, walker, glenn and coleman. and all 8 will almost certainly be contribuitors in 3-to-4 years when the texans should be making a run at the playoffs. there's a not a GM with an IQ over 3 that would even bother to compare the two, let alone take cleveland's foundation over houston's. as for dead cap space, let's wait and see on boselli; assuming he bounces back, he's not wasted cap space.
Ric- All the players you listed (IMO) are second tier players. Case in point Az Hakim wanted to prove he was more than a #3 or #4 receiver. So he went someplace where he could do that (prove himself). As for Scroeder he is anice possesion receiver who will always have a niche but again I think he left to try to break out of his niche. You do make a good point but again I am referring to the top shelf FAs (Pre-Bowl or near Pro-Bowl level players). Carolina and Jacksonville may disagree with you, They won early, did not have the great picks and have never been close (this year Carolina is a surprise) to a good team. So the case can be made that Cleveland may have a better model. They have a nice nucleus of young potentially dominant players (Couch, Green, Warren, and Courtney Brown). So again there path is slower but in the process they are adding some great players. I dunno I guess we'll see after 5 years where everyone stacks up, it is proven you can win early in the NFL, but winning means worse draft position. Typically the guys you build a team around are the early draft picks. Maybe the Texans can do both (win and get Franchise players), but again only time will tell. But if you told me I could take over either team right now, I would take Cleveland (right now) they just have more young players whom you can build a team around. I still rate Couch as high as Carr, Cleveland has the RB (Green), and 2 young studs on the D-line. Cleveland is hurting with the loss of Jamir Miller, no doubt. Then again I've never had my IQ tested.
name the last FA that would fit into the top shelf category... they don't exist anymore; teams lock those players up, which bring us to your second point.... carolina and jacksonville aren't really fair comparisons for two reasons... in fact, i don't even know why you broguht them up (except both are still more proof that money and not wins drive FAs since both did very well in free agency their first two years). both came along in FA's infancy and took advanatge of that (before teams had a chance to lock up their top talent) and each were granted much better draft positions. JAX and CAR both received two extra picks at the end of the first round, which means each had 3 of the top 32 picks in their respective drafts. because of this, CLE and HOU were awarded their first extra picks in the middle of the second round. so houston only had 2 picks among the first 33 -- MAJOR difference. right now? well, sure, i'd take the team with three drafts under its belt over the first year expansion team; that wasn't the point i was making. my point (and maybe i didn't make it clear) was after each team's respective first years, houston is light years ahead of where cleveland was at this time three years ago. so imagine where houston will be in 2005.... and you're telling me that potential, mixed with the city, mixed with the facilities isn't going to be a major selling point?
I want Boston to come here but for some reason I think he will end up in St Louis. There were reports on the Rams board that they were looking to unload Bruce and look for a big time wideout to go with Holt. Dyson would make me happy if he came here.
Last year Laroi Glover was the closest. You probably can't build a defense around him but he is a top 10 DT in the league. In the past Reggie White (went to GB to win), Deion (went to SF, Dallas and Washington in search of wins). I'm sure there are others just none come to mind. As you can tell you can't count on signing top FAs (that you can build a team around) via FA. THey happen occassionally, but typically goto where they think they can win (it worked for Reggie and Deion twice). So it goes back to my point that you build your cornerstones thru the draft, and Clevlenad has started off with 4 very high picks. Ric again your imagination and mine are not the same. I had visions of grandjour for my Blue Jackets (NHL) too, but you know what it is our third year and we are improving but we are nowhere near a playoff team. It is the same case for the Browns. They have the talent to possibly be a playoff team in their 4th year but their nuclues (four 1st round picks) is probably too young to make a run this year. I would be very surprised is Houston is any further advanced than Cleveland is entering their 4th year. Maybe they'll have a couple more wins, I dunno. Maybe Boselli will become healthy and become the beest OT in football, like he was a few years ago. If that is the case you may be right. If he doesn't regain that stature I think you'll be in the exact same situation as Cleveland, where 4 of your top 6-7 players will be your 1st round picks, and I really do like the two D-linemen Cleveland has gotten thru the draft. Again it's just my $.02 but a great franchise will be built thru the draft so the more talent you can get the first few years the better off the franchise will be. I'm not saying anyone likes losing but a couple 3-13, 4-12 seasons (assuming you can hold your fan base) would help you out much more than 6-10 or 7-9 seeasons early on.
and, once again, glover left an 8-8 team who was in the playoffs in 2000 for a team that's been 5-11 the past however many years and hasn't been to the playoffs since 1998. which once again proves my point: players go where the money is. there's a reason none come to mind -- it rarely happens. both white and sanders signed either prior to or during the salary cap's infancy. i mean, that you have to go back to, what? 1996 for examples only strengthens my assertion. there are rarely any top shelf FAs available anymore, and money is what drives them, not wins, because, as i pointed out, if you're winning, you're paying your top players and can't afford to add top talent. geez, you're all over the map here -- what do the blue jackets, a hockey team, have to do with this discussion? i didn't even know there was a blue jackets... why am i having to discuss them? your point is that expansion teams, even those with shiney new facilities, can't attract top talent because players want to play for winners. i questioned, this and cited 8, 9 players from last year's FA crop who all downgraded their teams... you respond by pulling out deion sanders (when he signed in 1996) and reggie white, who i think signed with GB in, like, 1994. otherwise... you seem to have a pretty solid foundation. you then ignore that houston signed three solid FAs this year (and almost added trotter) and extended the contract of a free-agent-to-be (glenn), continuing to claim an expansion team can't attract top talent, all because some hockey team can't seem to do it. i mean, if they can draw three pretty decent FAs without a single game under their belt, you're telling me a year of being competitive, of people talking up reliant stadium and it's adjoining facilities, of NFL commentators talking about how loud and passionate the fans are while looking at a young roster that contains certifiably 8-10 building blocks in its first year isn't going to have a single, solitary impact on any FAs? come on...
Deion got a pretty fat contract from Jerry, as a matter of fact, I think that contract tied JJ's hands to a certain extent. Deion may have gone to DC to win, but he was passed his prime and I don't think there were many bidders for his services, at least not at his asking price. Were the Packers good before REggie came? I don't know. Columbus? I'm sure it's a nice city. I don't think it's Houston though. I would venture to guess, per capita, Houston has as many pro athletes as any city. Athletes like to live here. Read the espn article.
Ric- I'm all ove rthe place because if you only focus on one sport and one criteria (expansion teams) and the time period you are looking at (post '96?) then you have no examples. I am using examples of other expansion teams. If you want to talk NFL you already dismissed using Carolina and Jacksonville as examples because they were pre-Cap. So that leaves Cleveland who used a different model than the Texans. Again you keep saying well look at Cleveland in the 1st year vs. Houston, then go onto say and use your imagination of where Houston will be in their 4th year. So where is Houston in 4 years? Have you gone from 5-11 to 7-9 to 8-8??? If so your draft picks are mid- 1st round picks. You've already admitted there are no FAs available to build your team around, right? So now you have David Carr, your expansion draft class holdovers, 3 other 1st round picks and what ever mid-level FAs you have signed. OK I see the picture but I'm still not seeing the vision of having a Great Team. Again I guess we'll agree to disagree. The Texans have a vision just like every other franchise (well except the Bengals) to be a winner. You obviously by into that vision, and I don't see it.
do you even bother to read over your posts before clicking the SUBMIT button? you should give it a try. i mean, you're all but admitting you have no foundation, so in your desperate attempt to try and find one, you're having to reference hockey teams, free agents signings from 6 or 7 years ago... all the while ignoring my examples that actually took place this decade and have actual relevance to the sport of football and to the topic at hand. so, let's take this opportunity to try and get you back on track: if, as you claim, top shelf free agents are only interested in signing with teams that win... please cite examples of this and let's try to stick with ones from this decade, OK? here's your second project: once you realize, accept, whatever, that in today's NFL, there are rarely, if ever, top shelf FAs available, explain to me why the vast majority of last year's free agent crop signed with, not winners, but worse teams, including three starters who signed with -- gasp!-- an expansion team. don't reference the NHL, or curt flood, or jesse jackson, or any other incoherent, irrelevant example, either. stick to the topic and defend your statement, which is: "Guys expansion teams have lots of problems attrackting Big Time FAs. It's not just the money but the top FAs want money and a chance to win." dude, we're talking about nfl teams, so, uhm... yeah, i'd prefer we talk about the nfl. and actually, no surprise, but you're wrong: cleveland's plan was the exact same as houston's, revised after JAX and CAR got off to such fast starts. anyway, even if we included JAX and CAR in our discussion... their great start only further underscores my point -- they built thru... free agency, meaning players will sign with expansion teams. uhm, dude, what we have is a team that, based on your projections, has gotten better each and every year of its existence. if, by year four, the texans are picking in the middle of the first round... that's a good thing! do you maybe need a nap, or...? there's no downside to filling a roster that allows you to get better every year. you don't see it? are your eyes closed? they've given charley casserly the nfl's largest and most expensive groups of scouts; they've built the nfl's premiere stadium; they've provided the coaches and players the best facilities available and they've gone out of their way to market the hell out of this team... and you don't see their vision? they may not all pay off, but the vision... you don't see it? you're either blind, or a cowboy fan.
Ric- OK let's assume there are no big time FAs. Who do the Texans build there team around? You assume your franchise will be built around a good #1 pick (I like Carr) and then in future years by mid-level picks. Maybe you can pull off the steal of the fraft from the #5 slot next year and the #7 slot the next and the #12 the following. Again my argument is the Browns now have a core of 3 top draft picks (Couch, Warren, Brown) and a good potential back in Green. That is the nucleus for a good team for a long time. if you guys do win early (as you are suggesting) you will need alonger tiem to have that good nucleus. I don't doubt you could be 8-8 in tyour third year, parity rule sin the NFL. But getting to 8-8 does not necessarily giv eyou the core of players to win titles. AS for FA's again I'll go back to Glover. Why he left an 8-8 team well NO traded their best player to Miami. Why he went to Dallas, well he saw a very good defense and read too many papers that Dallas could make the playoffs this year and saw a weak Division (mcNabb has made the Eagles a good team). But he went to a team he thought could win. Why did 3 starters sign with the Texans you ask? Well it' ssimple they wanted to standout more than their current teams. Lewis is a great special teams player but he thought he could come to the Texans and also catch some passes, doesn't sound like he is a decent receiver tho). As for the others I'm sure they had their reasons (close to home, not alot of interest in them, wanted to play as much as possible, etc). Cleveland's plan was not like the Texans. Cleveland took young, cheap players in the expansion draft. They had opportunities to get veterans with bloated salaries and/or possible injuries but they went another direction. They did sign some FAs but they never really overspent. Biggest name players they had was Jamir Miller and Chris Spielman (before his injury) so definetely no Tony Bosellis (again if Boselli is healthy he is a steal but Jacksonville got rid of him due to his risk of not recovering/high salary) for the Browns in the beginning. I don't have the numbers in front of me but I would venture to guess the salaries for the Browns and the Texans were drastically different in year 1? Does that not say they had a different plan (Browns take cheap players who aren't as good, Texans take expensive players when they were available)? Again we won't agree. You obviously love your Texans and I believe the only way an expansion team can be succesful is thru the draft (which yes means alot of losses for the 1st few years).
you seem to be under the impression that successful teams have all-pros at every position, which isn't the case. the texans will build thru the draft and free agency, same way every other team does it. i never said this team would win early; when did i ever say that? i said they had what has to be considered an impressive first-year nucelus that's young enough to grow as the team does. and how or why does 8-8 equal some sort of apex? if they're 8-8 after only three years, the next logical step is 9-7/10-6 in year four... by then, you're adding pieces instead of entire parts. you're reaching. a dozen, or more FAs went to worse teams; glover alone doesn't make up for that, and even a desperate spin doesn't change the fact NO was 8-8 last year and dallas was 5-11. lewis wasn't a FA; as for the rest... in other words, FAs will sign with expansion teams and consider things other than winning... hasn't that been my point all along? are you still going to tell me the texans will have trouble signing mid-level and higher FAs? the texans' roster currently doesn't have a single player over 30; they have 2 that i know of (boselli and walker) who will be 30 this season, and both figure to still be around 3-to-4 years from now. it's a very young, talented nucleus and there's no hint of cap worries. cleveland took young, cheap players in the expansion draft because that was all that was available. you're deluding yourself if you think they would have stuck to that plan with boselli, young, et al, available. houston's expansion draft was unlike any other in history, in terms of available talent. JAX traded for mark brunell and signed several key FAs their first two years; CAR built themselves almost exclusively thru FAs. the end result is what matters, but to say there's only way one to arrive at it is silly.
Ric: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/news/1999/02/09/expansiondraft/ THere is the link to SI on what Cleveland did in the draft. They had opps to get high priced players and didn't (nobody as bidg named as Boselli though) I couldn't find Clevelands Cap number for year 1, but the Texans is about 65.3M, does that sound correct, I didn't get the link. Young talent- well Clevalnd in it's 4th year has oner player with over 10 years experience and that is their punter. The Texans could have 5 from their core (Boselli, Coleman, Glenn, Lewis and Walker) who if they are on the team in year 4 will all be over the 10 year plateau.
Funny, New Orleans hasn't lost a step even though they lost Glover and Williams. I hope the Texans build through the draft. But, I also know that Houston and Texas for that matter are popular destinations for athletes. Warm weather, low cost of living, no state income tax, etc. If the Texans or the Cowboys for that matter, have room under the cap, they will be players. And, all things being equal, both would get more than their share of FA's.
Drew Bledsoe. One of the top 10 QBs in the league signed with a team that was really bad last year. Look at Leroy Glover (top 5 DT)--he signed with a team with a very poor w-l record the last few years. I agree with Ric, players go for money #1, and PT/other factors #2. The Texans have as good as shot at very quality to top notch FAs as most everyone else. BTW-Ya'll disagreed with me, but I still can't figure out why they didn't go for Lamar Smith or Micheal Pittman.
