IceHouse, I think Moon is a very good player, but he played with ALOT of talent for quite a few years. He put up gawdy #'s with the run and shoot. He had talented wr's and rb's (relatively speaking). His offensive line always had AT LEAST two pro bowlers. Heck, Matthews is still going to pro bowls. The Oiler defenses were also very talented. Houston's problems in the early 90's was not talent. BTW, I do think Warren belongs in the hall.
In Warren Moon's last year with the Oilers, they had the best record in the league. The very next year, they had the worst record in the league.
He had talented wr's and rb's (relatively speaking). Really? Once again, name me one receiver that excelled once Warren wasn't throwing to him anymore? As far as the RB's are concerned, you have got to be kidding me. Mike Rozier? Lorenzo White? Alonzo Highsmith? Gary Brown? Who did the other QB's have? Montana: Rice, Clark & Taylor at WR, Jones at TE, Craig at RB Young: Rice at WR, Jones at TE, Watters at RB Aikman: Irvin at WR, Novacek at TE, Emmitt at RB Marino: Clayton & Duper at WR, really no one at RB (also no ring) Elway: McCaffrey & Smith at WR, Sharpe at TE, Davis at RB Farve: Brooks, Beebe & Freeman at WR (Rison and D. Howard were on the championship team too), Chmura at TE If I'm Moon, I would switch positions with any of the above QB's. The only one Moon comes close to (teammate talent wise) is ringless Marino, and his receivers were better than what Moon had. Farve's help wasn't great, but I would take his TE over anyone Moon had a chance to throw to. Elway's WR's weren't all that, but his TE and RB were better than anyone Moon had. The help for Montana, Young and Aikman was clearly superior. His offensive line always had AT LEAST two pro bowlers. True, but his offensive system didn't use a TE or a FB. That's a loss of two key blockers, not to mention the midget receivers. More passes = more hits on the QB, and this is before they had the b.s. rules to protect the QB in place. I can't find the stats to back it up (meaning I might be wrong), but I think the Oilers were always near the top of the league for sacks allowed. Houston's problems in the early 90's was not talent. The Oilers had talent, but so did the other teams that had great QB's (Dolphins, Broncos, Cowboys, 49'ers, Packers). Unfortunately, it's hard to win a title with no running back, which is why Marino and Moon never won. Like I said, I struggle to think of any QB that did more with less. Let me know when you can think of one who did.
Don't forget that Moon spent many of his most productive years in the CFL because of the prejudice at the time against black quarterbacks. In a league where the pass is king, he dominated, winning 5 Grey Cups (league championships) in a row in the 1980's. Don't tell me that Warren Moon isn't clutch. And don't tell me that it doesn't count because the talent level is too low - look at all the ex-CFL quarterbacks coming out and winnning in the NFL in the twilight of their careers - Moon, Jeff Garcia, Flutie. I agree that Moon belongs in the Hall just for opening up the door for black quarterbacks - but his skill level justifies him being there as well.
White and Rozier won't make the HOF, but I remember both of them had 1,000 yard seasons. I'll take either one over Sammy Winder or Gerald wilhite. Rozier had a few 1,000 yard seasons, if memory serves me correctly. Highsmith was a good blocker and a decent receiver, he just flamed out early. Warren played in a system that was conducive to putting up gawdy stats. Hill, Slaughter, and Givens have made the pro bowl a few times between them. None of them are Jerry Rice-like by any means, but they were certainly above-average. The OL was very solid for alot of years. Again, I'm not taking anything away from Moon, and I think he certainly belongs in the Hall.
Warren played in a system that was conducive to putting up gawdy stats. This is true. White and Rozier won't make the HOF, but I remember both of them had 1,000 yard seasons. But R.Craig and E.Smith will (the help for Montana & Aikman). Davis & Watters have a better shot than any back Moon played with. Hill, Slaughter, and Givens have made the pro bowl a few times between them. Yeah, and each season Moon was the QB? Once again, how many of these receivers were productive without Moon? they were certainly above-average. That's debatable. If anything, their numbers were more reliant on the run-n-shoot than Moon's (the Oilers didn't use that system for Moon's entire tenure, but that system was in place each year one of the above receivers made the pro bowl). None of them are Jerry Rice-like by any means My point exactly. I never said the talent Moon had around him sucked, but it clearly wasn't as good as the talent that the other great QB's of his time had. The talent that Farve had comes the closest, but I would still pick Brooks, Beebe, Freeman, Rison, Howard & Chmura over the Oilers receivers. The OL was very solid for alot of years. Yeah, about as solid as you can get when you are missing two blockers (TE & FB).
actually i gotta protest a little. maradona HAS to be #2 i mean really. he looked different than every other player on the pitch. he floated and glided while they stumpled. beauty unseen since pele. also to further my point. notice you only needed one name to ferer to him. pele(one name) maradona(one name) you also gave Zico the same love. ok i will add a premauure nominee, young Mr. Giggs. I really love watching him move, and he is probably the only man on the planet i can say that about peace
But R.Craig and E.Smith will (the help for Montana & Aikman). Davis & Watters have a better shot than any back Moon played with. Understood. But still, White and Rozier being 1,000 yard rushers (and White was a decent receiver) does make them "above average," imo. Yeah, and each season Moon was the QB? Once again, how many of these receivers were productive without Moon? Once again, Moon belongs in the HOF. But, imo I think Elway and Montana are a notch above. WR's do still have to get open, and imo, they are more likely to get open in the run'n'shoot. This is more relavent to my Elway argument. Montana played in the west coast offense, and he had easier passes to complete then Moon or Elway. Elway was a n improviser who had the ability to buy time in the pocket and allow his wr's to get open. That's debatable. If anything, their numbers were more reliant on the run-n-shoot than Moon's (the Oilers didn't use that system for Moon's entire tenure, but that system was in place each year one of the above receivers made the pro bowl). I think both the QB and WR will gain alot of yards in the run n shoot. My point exactly. I never said the talent Moon had around him sucked, but it clearly wasn't as good as the talent that the other great QB's of his time had. The talent that Farve had comes the closest, but I would still pick Brooks, Beebe, Freeman, Rison, Howard & Chmura over the Oilers receivers. I'll give you Freeman and Brooks. Although, Brooks is out of the league. But Rison is inconsistent, and I think he only played there one year. Beebe is no longer in the league, and I don't really remember him making a great impact at Green Bay. Howard has been a bust at wr. Yeah, about as solid as you can get when you are missing two blockers (TE & FB). The two extra wr's are certainly better receivers then the tight end or fullback. Thus, it can be argued that Warren had better receivers than teams with a fullback or a TE. Also, in a 4 wr set, your two better WR's may get doubled or the team would be more likely to play zone or play a dime package. This means that teams may have to rush two fewer guys if they have extra db's to play zone. I'm not sure if the run'n'shoot was criticized for it's blocking schemes. I think it had more to do with the fact that it was harder to establish a ground game and that it wouldn't work in cold weather.
I'm citing an example of a coaching philosophy that is not as conservative as people portray. Elway fans can't have it both ways: 'he's so awesome, look at all those 4th quarter comebacks, look at all those yards he threw for' and then saying 'he was handcuffed, Reeves wouldn't throw, Shanahan opened it up.' (a) Reeves kept the games close because most of the team sucked, and keeping it close allowed them the chance to win in the 4th. The same strategy used by Bill Parcells and Chuck Noll and Vince Lombardi and a host of other all time great coaches. (b) Elway had the opportunity to become a comeback quarterback because the D stunk and because Reeves philosophy kept Denver in games long enough for Elway to get those chances. I think it is not a leap at all to say that the difference between Elway with Reeves, Elway that lost all those Superbowls, and Elway that won two Superbowls...is Terrell Davis. You put a premier back on any of those other Denver teams, and its a whole different story. That doesn't have anything to do with Reeves 'coaching philosophy.' Both Shanahan and Reeves believe in establishing the run first. Shanahan has been able to draft great backs, but that is not a difference in coaching philosophy. The fact is that Elway was no better than a lot of other really good QBs. When he had a premier back, he was able to win the Superbowl. When he didn't, he couldn't. End of story. OVERRATED.
As for the Top 5 all time: I wasn't around to see Jim Brown, Johnny U., et al, so I won't include them because I didn't actually see them play live. 1. Sweetness. Horrible offensive line. Never ran out of bounds. Always gave more than he got and more than most ever had. 2. LT. The game he put a harness on his separated shoulder and played anyway? Man that is the real deal holyfield. Redefined his position. 3. The Tyler Rose- Pure poetry in motion. No one has ever been like him. A Mack truck with drag racing acceleration. Punishing defenses with no offensive line ala Payton. 4. Jerry Rice - I've not seen anyone make as many big plays in big games, period. 5. Dan Marino - Not sometimes, but often, I found myself saying 'Damn!' at plays he would make. A natural. The natural. A shame he never had a premier back, but I don't hold that against him. Just full on old school QB toughness and destroyed many a defenses psyche.
