I tried explaining to him that the value of a player may change depending on a team's need, but he doesnt seem to get that. He doesnt understand a player like shane was more valuable to houston than other teams because he was seen as the missing piece to a ring. (if someone replies to this with, "then why didnt we win one" i suggest you check the injury report the last few years). So they were willing to give up more than most teams. Its like paying more than face value for a rockets' ticket if you're dying to see that game, to you it's worth it, to someone else it may just look stupid. He's also going to take Rudy's position in the draft and compare it directly to shane's, if he hasnt done so already, He doesnt take into consideration how weak or strong the drafts were..
Well as far as the first part of your post, Morey is not going to come out publicly and say that. That would make him and the organization look incompetent and would be a blow to Battier's confidence. I agree with the 2nd part of your post to a certain extent. There's plenty of facts in my words, but you're being selective in what you read or comprehend as usual I guess. I'm not going to rehash all the arguments made about Battier, because there's a thread with over 30 pgs that you and others can refer to, but I should've mentioned game 1 as well. He played some nice D on Roy, but that was it. The Rockets haven't shot that well the rest of the series which is why the games have been close. If Battier played like he did in the first 2 games in games 3 & 4, the Rockets would've lost. Against Utah the past two post-seasons with the exception of one game, Shane wasn't much of a factor. I don't see how you're failing to understand this. I watched the games and I don't think he did anything especially relevant on D either, but you're more than welcome to look up the numbers since you disagree or post them from the other thread. As leebigez said, why is it called hate when you're just telling the truth. I don't hate anybody. I love the Houston Rockets. You're actually right for once though that he's not a scorer, but you still have to be able to score, which is what he hasn't done historically, but he did do the past two games. But the problem with your argument that nobody passes the ball to Shane which is why he doesn't score is that Battier is too content many times to just stand in the corner instead of making himself available. I'm sure there's no grand conspiracy to not pass him the ball. If he cuts or slashes or posts, there is no doubt in my mind the Rockets will pass him the ball. Hopefully, he continues this type of play and the Rockets end it in Game 5 in Portland. I'm sure you'll probably respond with the same old rhetoric and tired accusations, but I've gotten used to that from you. Dark_Tower, maybe choke was too harsh of a word, but I think it's fair to say that historically Battier has at times been invisible in the playoffs and hasn't elevated his game like Michael Cooper, Elie, Posey, Bowen, and similar types of players have done. For example, his ppg production against Utah last post-season was dramatically affected by the only good offensive game in his entire playoff career (game 2 I believe where he scored 22 pts), but he averaged 7 ppg for the rest of series as leebigez mentioned. That's a 25% drop off from the regular season. To me that's statistically significant. Also, in the playoff series he participated in while he was in Memphis, he was a non-factor at times as well. Hanging out in the corner on offense and getting scorched by Dirk on defense. While none of this may meet your criteria for choking, the inability to elevate your play and/or transform into a non-factor on both ends of the court in the playoffs is similar enough. No it is relevant, because you had people on the first page of this thread talking about what a great deal it was by saying how much better Battier is than Rudy Gay etc... I merely added that at the end to bring them back to reality since guys like Battier are readily available through minor trades and free agency. How could I have missed that article? It was posted numerous times on clutchfans. If you want to talk about the 2nd Cleveland game, maybe you can explain why Kobe's numbers have increased against the Rockets since Battier's arrival.
Before wafer, we havent had a guy that is in the 6'5-6'7 range that can get to the rim, get his own shot, finish at the rim, and shoot the 3. Last summer with tracy having surgery and shane slowing along with adelman and the rules, i was pining for davis,barnes, a trade for jefferson or someone of that ilk. The rox signed a old, aging, slow, unathletic guy like barry who didnt even get a offer from the spurs. Morey to his credit and to adelmans credit, they found wafer. imaging this team without him or his type. Maybe u can say tim thomas is a paycheck collector, but all i know is that he has shown up big in every playoff he's been in. now if you want to say he coast during the regular season, i can give u that, but he has played above his regular seasons in the playoffs. if you ask me which would i take, it would be the playoff performer.
well while you're looking for involvement, the rest of us are looking for the W, which we seem to keep getting even when Shane isnt "involved". that's what i kept pointing out when we had that long thread about this, it was during a time when were were like 10-3, and i asked why dwell on shane's lack of scoring when we are winning and he doesnt need to adjust his play? Shane's lack of scoring and us losing was never directly related. We've won with him scoring 2 pts and with him scoring 14. There's other things to look at that matter more in wins and losses. If y'all just want him to be involved for the sake of soothing that itch you get when you see 30 mins and 4 pts then that's your problem, most fans worry more about Ws.
so you're telling me the rockets thought shane would play the same way on a team that revolved around 2 "superstars" as he did on a team with one where he had more responsibilities? His scoring is pretty much the same 3 of the 4 yrs in memphis as they are in houston, so the outcome is about the same, but he's not going to play the same way in a different system. Do you also think the Rockets expected Ron to score 20+ with Yao AND tmac ont he team? If that's the case then why havent they traded him? Why do they play him 30+ mins a game? A better question is, why isn't bonzi still here? Mike James? Steve Novak? Kirk Syder? Rafer Alston? i mean if houston likes to keep players who dont live up to their expectations then those guys should still be here.
Coincidentally to his 2 big playoff performances in Milwaukee and Phoenix that you haven't noticed, was that he was in a contract run for each one of them. Once he got those fat contracts, he was back to paycheck collecting TT.
I saw your Tim Thomas playoff comment, and I was pretty curious about that. I went and checked basketball-reference.com, and there were three seasons where his playoff production exceeded his regular season production, at least in PPG (99-00, 02-03 and 05-06). The other three playoff years he performed right about his average. So there's some merit to that argument. But I remember reading in Seven Seconds or Less that Phoenix's coaching staff encouraged Thomas to shoot more to inflate his numbers so that they could dump him off on an unsuspecting buyer. Do you or anyone else recall that? That was a pretty damning statement if that's true.
Its not about the scoring and the post season is a totally different animal than the regular season. When u play a team 6-7 times, the role players are going to have to step up at some point. Look at this series in particular as a example. If brooks,scola, landry, and company werent hitting shots and hurting portland, they might be up, but because their strategy to take yao out the the game has allowed other to play well. Coming to game 3 and 4 with adjustment in hand, portland has now resorted t letting yao catch the ball. Well, if yao catches the ball in good position, he's going to score. Once yao kinda got going, then they had to start sending double or man and a half. With some movement and confidence, shane now has room to shoot. In game 1 with brooks killing,scola killing and the pressure to deny yao, shane drove to the hole 2 times and got some fouls on the other bigs. Thats what getting involved can do. When the rockets play La, kobe is a bigger headache on defense than he is on offense. He guards shane, but if shane is opposite of yao, kobe is digging the ball from yao. Even when kshane post entry passes to yao, kobe doesnt even locate shane. Sometimes when shane is the passer and he cuts, kobe doesnt even look at him. This cant happen if the rockets have any chance of beating la. They need 10-14 pts from shane to help keep kobe honest. If not, kobe is going to sink in yao's lap and disrupt the offense. That cant happen.
I thought this thread was about Battier choking in the play-offs?? He hit some big shots and made some big plays these last couple of games.
I also dont understand why Shane gets a lot of the hate in this area when Adelman said during the season he wanted shane to be in the corner. You can disagree with the idea if you'd like, but its related more to Adelman's coaching than Shane's style. And yes this was even when shane was in that big slump and guys were sagging off of him, Adelman was asked specifically is shane was "messing up" by standing there like that and Adellman basically said that was the game plan.
first of all, i wasnt trying to say shane's lack of scoring always comes from the rockets not passing the ball, i was merely pointing out how some posters just like to jump on that topic anytime they see shane scorinf a few pts without looking at the big picture, that thread was just a perfect example. I've also gotten used to having to go dig up old posts just to prove you wrong, then you just give me the 'ol "whats important is that we're both rocket fans so let's stop arguing and just cheer on the rockets together "....
I know they suck now, but that memphis team had some pretty good talent. Gasol,Miller,Williams,Posey,bonzi at that time to name a few. The team was defense oriented and it centered around gasol. i'm not going to bring rudy into this, but the year the rockets went to lotto land with they had a 36 yr old welsey, a even older barry. The only legit scorer's on the team were tracy and yao. They traded james for rafer because they didnt think james was a true pg. They had no size at the 2/3 spot except tracy and no other guy that was capable of getting 12-15 ppg. They went into win now mode and figured that on a team with a bigger offensive role, shane probably could get back to his rookie production of 14ppg. I mean playing with yao and tracy should help u get to 14 easy. Instead, rafer alston became the 3rd guy. Then last yr scola became the 3/4th guy. now i've never said a guy like shane wasnt valuable to a team, i've always thought that no matter if shane plays 35 mins or 15 mins, you're going to get the same from him. he came off the bench 1 yr in memphis and his output was the same. I'm glad shane played well, but like i've said before, shane needs to take advantage of the attention to yao.
Adelamn has never said shane should just stand in the corner. U have never watched a adelman offense and saw a guy just stand in the corner. Adelamn is real big on bodies and and the ball moving. If Wafer played a more trusting defene, he could split shane's time.
They're not really paying attention, are they? Battier's shots in the late fourth of the last two games may have very well been the game winners of both in Houston.
Here's what you're failing to understand. Leebigez has tried to explain this to you in many different ways: In the playoffs, the stars usually cancel each other out and role players many times end up deciding who wins and loses. Thus, role players have to step-up and elevate their game like Michael Cooper, Maxwell, Horry, Elie, Cassell, Posey, Bowen, Ariza etc... With the exception of a few games, Battier has not done this in his post-season career. In regards to the second part of your post, you made some comments that you said weren't knee-jerk reactions and you said that you've been making them for the majority of the season, which was proven false. With the exception of game 2 last year against Utah, Battier did nothing relevant against the Jazz both times the Rockets played them in the post-season. You've said some ridiculous things in your "do everything it takes" approach to defend Battier from any sort of criticism, but this is by far the most ludicrous. Do you actually believe Adelman told him to stand in the corner? Lol! And you do also actually believe that it's related to Adelman's coaching? Lol again! This is a guy who runs a MOTION offense, which requires players to be dynamic as opposed to standing in the corner and being static. Maybe you can provide some evidence to support your statement above, but I doubt it.
he did earlier this season, he said Shane is suppose to be there, it wasnt a detailed explanation so i cant say if he meant he should be there every minute played, but i know he was asked about shane standing there and he replied he's suppose to be. I dont think i can search inside here, but i'll try and find it through google, i'm 100% sure he said it because i posted it on here in one of those shane threads..
Can you tell me when Maxwell, horry, elie, stepped up to fill the void and led Houston to the next round without Dream? Ariza without Kobe? Bowen without TD? I'm not sure why shane has to be blamed for losing a series where Yao wasnt even playing...you cant say for sure any of these guys would have stepped up and played above their average self for the length of a series because they never had to do it. I wouldnt count cassell because he was really a semi-star stuck in a role position.
Are you really going to make me dig up that thread? Really? C'mon now.......i proved i made those comments throughout at least a span of about 2 months...even in threads that were random and not about any specific game or loss, so how could they be knee jerk reactions? yet you still claim i knee jerked because i couldn't find any posts from "last year". Great reasoning Quick, go find me a post where you hated on shane last year or else I'll accuse you of knee jerking all over this thread and say it was proven!!
If u believe that, go watch old portland and kings teams and look at christie and kersey and tell me if they just stood there. Spacing is one thing, allowing kobe to measure yao's johnson is another. Anyway, this is really about shane playing well and the rockets winning. Thats all that matters to me.
