So u mean a guy scores 22 in game 1 then avg 7 for the other 5 games is acceptable? You must do better than that. On top of that, ak and harpring play on a team where williams,boozer,and okur are ahead of them in the food chain. If you were looking at it from the outside and i told you yao was out as well as rafer, who would u think should step up? bobby jackson? One of the rookies? What about chuck hayes?
To you, "tangible" means boxscore numbers. To people like Morey, they tract tangible things ordinary fans call "intangibles."
You can see a hop in his step though. In the 1st game, he went to the rim 2 times back to back which is rare. Tonight, he even went in the paint, he shot without hesitation and he waas jumping well for rebounds.
Genuine question here. When does Shane's offensive production (or lack thereof) equate to choking? I don't recall him missing big shots or critical freethrows - that's what I thought choking was. Nor did his numbers dramatically drop; he had similar production in the playoffs as the regular season. I always thought choking is when you played significantly worse under pressure, not around your usual levels. Now if you want to argue his production was low and should have been higher to start, that's a different argument that makes more sense to me. But it seems like you're conflating the two issues together, when they are two distinct and separate arguments. Once again, this is a different argument for a different day - the discussion now is whether Shane Battier is a playoff choker or not. Shane's perceived value really isn't germane to that discussion.
No Stat Allstar Just curious man, have you ever read this article? There is about a dozen reason why Shane is more valuable then Rudy Gay. Do you remember the 2nd Cleveland game this year where lebron had his worse game of his career? Seriously man, get over your man love for Gay and look at the stats that really matter which are Wins!
No it dont. To me, i'm looking at his involvement more than anything. When he passes into the post, do u cut or just stand there. When his man doesnt even care to look and goes to sit in yao's lap, that bothers me. When he has a 6 ft guard on him, is he trying to punish him? Its not about box scores to me, its about getting into the game and having a presence. Any person can read a boxscore and make assumptions just as people can make exucuses when he is a no show. In the playoffs, u have to "get into the game." If the rox close out this series and play la, i'm watching kobe. if kobe is checking Yao jock size and shane is just hanging out and not being a factor, i'm going to say something. just because a person is critical doesnt mean u wish bad.
which is exactly the point i've been trying to make with Kwame. There was even a post after game 2 calling out shane for not coming through on the offensive end, then the OP proceeded to point out "no one was passing him the ball" ......what's the difference now? They're passing him the ball. He was open in game 3 during scola's big shot in the last minute, and he was open again tonight in the final minute or two and he didnt get the ball, specially on ron's last three. a lot of fans wanted shane to step up offensively, as in driving, posting up, etc. going away from his normal spotting up or getting putback off of rebounds, and now that shane is scoring more they'll probably think that's what he is doing, but he's hasnt changed the way he scores, just gets the ball more.
If you're a wing player, unlike yao, there are more chances to get ponts other than off a double of yao. I watched shane in college and in memphis and eventhough he scored 10ppg in houston and memphis, they were a different 10. Early in memphis, about 1/3 o his pts were from the 3pt line,1/3 ft line/ and the rest from midrange to layups. Since being in houston and even the last 2 yrs, over 60% of his pts come from the 3. What that tells me is a player that can be run off the 3 pts line or is afraid to attack the basket. Thats why against utah they played close enough to yao that even if it wasnt a double, its seemed that way because they were really close. When u watch a guy like wafer that is a dribble drive threat, the defense is totally different. Now when yao gets the ball and the memphis shane was capable of getting inside and finishing or drawing fouls. Thats what the rockets thought they were getting. Instead, his ft attempts have goone from 200+ to a little moe than 100+ Add tha up and u have a standstill player.
That was Lee. He has been a vocal proponent of both of those players - but to be fair, he's been a big proponent of getting more size and athleticism on the Rockets' roster in general. Those are just two players he has advocated specifically. Even if you don't agree with those players on our roster, the sentiment is well appreciated, and that's what Morey's moving towards (at least on the athleticism front...a quality backup 5 should be a priority this offseason).
I can stand up and defend what i say to the fullest. The ricky davis guy, isnt that wafer? We dont have the tim thomas guy, but alot of people are calling for that guy also.
I've seen you bring up this argument, and on face it seems to have merit. But how much of Battier's three point shooting do you attribute to his role (particularly under JVG) and how much to passivity? I know that JVG and Adelman have both asked Shane to shoot more, not less.
It speaks to the credibility of people when they pine for losers like Ricky Davis and Tim Thomas and want to get rid of Shane Battier. That's all.
first, you're taking what i said out of context. I was responding to how some shane-haters claim he did nothing, didn't show up, and was outplayed by harpring/AK. I understand harpring and AK could afford to contribute less than shane, but i wasnt implying shane held them in check just because they didnt do a lot, just simply stating that they didnt do more than shane , which is relevant to my discussion with Kwame and others, but not relevant to what you're asking me now. Should shane have tried to do more given that Rafer and Yao were out? Yes, is he a choker or no-show because he didnt? No. I dont see why that is hard to understand. People try to pin the losses that year on shane not showing up, but does that really make sense? Should Boston blame Big Baby for today's loss, because the role player couldnt come up with 20 and 10? did he choke? Not show up? No, yeah it would have been nice for him to be able to step up, but he's not a scorer, he rebounded well, which is what he does, got his 10 pts, which is about what he is, a 10ppg scorer. You cant put a choking label on a guy who didnt meet standards that were too high for their abilities.
I think that you can argue for the type of player without the specific person involved. Wafer isn't a guy who gets 20ppg on bad teams shooting the majority of shots like Ricky Davis. That's the same guy who got traded from Cleveland because he was shooting more than LeBron at the time. I also think we both want a guy with Tim Thomas' skill, height and athleticism - but I don't want a guy with a proven track record of coasting through seasons, underachievement and contract year-itis. I agree with you about the archetypes that you're seeking in Ricky Davis and Tim Thomas, but the actual guys themselves would kill the Rockets. If you had baggage free versions of the two that played defense...that's a whole different story.
I think with guys like Shane, Horry, McKey and dudes of that ilk, they get confortable in their role. Maybe its their makeup or whatever, but adelman isnt describing any more plays to shane than jvg. Mow maybe the motion helps him a bit more, but the team needs shane to get in the game. I mean he's the most tenured guy behind artest. he's capable as i've always said, but he seems content. If a guy isnt even playing you, you have to hurt him. if they put a steve blake or even brandon roy on you, u have to keep pressure on him so he cant just focus on offense. Run the court, cut to the basket, do something!
I never said build ur franchise around these guys did i? I said get guys that can create a shot for themselves and create mismatches for the other team. I know where this is trying to go, so whatever.
How would any team create a mismatch with Ricky Davis? The team that has him will be on the short end of that mismatch lol. Now the spacing 4 position is underrated and I understand that. But TT is a paycheck collector IMO...
