Hey Clutchfans, In my last thread I compared the this Rockets teams hopes of winning a title to the 2004 Pistons before they won it that year. A group of talented guys with no clear cut Superstar. I saw a lot of diverse excellent opinions (this is the most talented forum I have been around). Which really made me think, what is it the rockets are missing to win like that 2004 Pistons team? The Answer: A Defensive All-Star Shane Battier has been a big reason we have been a winning team year after year, but his stats are invisible and were hard to see with the naked box score eye. We need a Ben Wallace and/or Bruce Bowen type defensive all star. (I like Jeffries or maybe Patterson in a few years, and Battier or Ariza.) Everyone is talking about Offensive stars. I think we have plenty of offense: Scola, K mart, Brooks and Yao [when healthy. You always have to say that don't you ] can all potentially score 15-20 points in a given game. Not including our bench offensive talent. Here is a list of NBA Champions and Finals teams who had NBA All-Defensive Team players in the past few years: 2009-10 Finals: Boston vs. LA* Boston Rajon Rondo (1st team) Lakers Kobe Bryant (1st team) 2008-09 Finals: LA* vs. Orlando Lakers Kobe Bryant (1st team) Orlando Dwight Howard (1st team) Rockets** Shane Battier, Ron Artest (both 2nd team) **This was the year we got to the second round. And took the NBA champions that year to 7 games. 2007-08 Finals: Boston* vs. LA Boston Kevin Garnett (1st team) LA Kobe Bryant (1st team) 2006-07 SA* vs. Cleveland SA Bruce Bowen, Tim Duncan (both 1st team) Cleveland None** **(they also got swept 4-0 in finals) 2005-06 Finals: Miami* vs. Mavericks Miami** none Dallas none (But lets admit, they did have Shaq and Wade on the same team.) 2004-05 Finals**: SA* vs. Detriot **(last finals since 93-94 to go to 7 games) SA Bruce Bowen, Tim Duncan (both 1st team) Detroit Ben Wallace (1st team) Tayshaun Prince (2nd team) Chauncy Billups (2nd team) 2003-04 Finals: Detroit* vs LA Detroit Ben Wallace (1st team) LA Kobe Bryant (1st team) *Won Championship that year.
Meh. Generally, the All-Defense teams are just good offensive players who also happen to play good defense, not necessarily the best defensive players in the league. Or guys who get lots of blocks/steals. I mean, Chuck is one of the best defensive players in the league, but he's too much of a liability in other areas to justify keeping him on the court enough for him to get all-defense recognition. In a way though, I agree with you, because I think the "missing piece" is a two-way star who can take over the game on offense. For a while I think Yao fell under that category, but there's no telling how effective he'll be next year. For this team to be a legit contender, it's probably going to need someone like Anthony or CP3. Though... Let's say Martin reverts to 07-08 form, Ariza and Brooks continue to improve, Scola remains rock solid, Miller turns back the clock and Yao is able to average ~17/7.5 in 25 mpg... This team could have an outside shot, I think. Basically EVERYTHING would have to go right. But they'd have a shot.
You need great defensive and offensive players. The Pistons had Billups, Prince, and Hamilton around the perimeter - all three capable defenders at least (probably Hamilton the weakest of the 3) and all three good scorers. Hamilton being the best, but Billups no lackey and Prince neither. We don't have that. Battier is no where near an offensive player as any of those 3. Brooks and Martin are no where near the defensive players to match that. Hayes is not Ben Wallace. And Yao is a ? It's just not a real comparison, and if anything, should tell us how far away we are from being a contender. Sorry to break people's bubble, but we're not a contender. We are a good team though and should be fun to watch this season.
I see your points. But we definitely have the offense if not more than the pistons (they were 18th in the league that year, we were 8th last year in points per game.) Check out the numbers from the Clutch fans stat page. 2004 Pistons stats: Offense: Richard Hamilton .455 fg% 17.6 ppg Chauncey Billups .394 fg% 16.9 ppg Rasheed Wallace .431 fg% 13.7 ppg Tayshaun Prince .467 fg% 10.3 ppg 2009 Rockets Stats (in Clutchfans stat page): Kevin Martin 43.5 fg% 21.3 ppg (during 24 gms with rockets) Aaron Brooks 43.2 fg% 19.6 ppg Luis Scola 51.4 fg% 16.2 ppg Yao Ming (?, but I think it will be better than Tayshuan Prince's offensive numbers) Defense: Chancy billup 2x nba all defensive 2nd team Tayshaun Prince 4x nba all defensive 2nd team Rip Hamilton none Shane Battier 2x nba all defensive 2nd team (Missing piece here)
i don't think making the all defensive team is a must since a lot of those players get on that team due to who they are and how popular. But, I would say that another defensive big would help the rockets a ton. Chuck does great, but having someone 6'10ish and could play tough D and fight hard on the boards would help this team a ton. of course, a defensive/rebounding big would just about help every team out there so rockets arent all that different.
I really think we've had at least two teams, maybe three, since '03-'04 that were about as good as that Pistons Championship team. Seriously, the Eastern Conference was horrid back then and everything went right for Detroit that year. The comparison really isn't a good fit, I don't think that's a model Morey's going to be following.
No, All star teams are usually dictated by that. The all defensive team is voted on by the Coaches. google or wiki it. I agree with you 100%. Yes it would. But we are different from other teams because we have had a winning record for the past four years and just need one piece to potentially win a title, not all teams can say that.
We clearly need to improve on defense. This starts on the interior. Yao has been more the defensive mainstay than Shane. Shane is a solid defender, especially when it comes to team defense...but all good defense in the NBA seems to start on the inside. Without Yao last year, we were toast. This is why the Miller signing is a head scratcher, as he is in no way a defensive center...but he is at least bigger and can rebound. Assuming Yao is healthy and merits 25 mpg, and Hill has improved enough to merit 10-15 mpg, this team SHOULD automatically be a much much improved defensive team. Also consider that Trevor is a defender on Shane's level, too, though a little bit better one on one, imo, but not as good a team defender. With some more paint protection, Trevor can gamble just that much more, and he is really good at playing the passing lanes and getting steals as is. Consider, the Rockets could roll with a defensive lineup of: Lowry Ariza Shane Hill Yao That squad might struggle offensively, and likely won't see a ton of PT together on the court, but just shows you the possibilities. Still, picking up another athletic, defensive minded big certainly wouldn't hurt.
Do you really think Kobe and Lebron are elite defenders? All-NBA defensive teams would say so, but their play would say otherwise
my thoughts exactly. I wouldnt even consider Dwight Howard to be a great defender but he's on the first team
Well Kobe has 5 rings. Lebron is regarded as one of the best players in the NBA. Both those guys have all first team defense credits. I'm not a NBA head coach, but I do think they know more about basketball and defense than I do, So I'm gonna trust their votes.
I wouldn't either, the guy is actually pretty poor one on one defender None of what you are saying means they are elite defenders. They are elite players who happen to not completely disregard the defensive side of the ball. Just because they play defense and are stars does not make them elite. Lebron and Kobe never guard to opposing teams best player, if they are so elite, why wouldn't they?
Elite is a pretty high bar and don't know if I would necessarily go there, but I do think Kobe and Lebron are great defenders, Kobe more so at this point. Is it easy to look at someone like a Bruce Bowen in his prime and say Kobe doesn't play defense like that? Kind of...but consider that was basically ALL Bruce had to focus on for the entire game. Kobe, meanwhile, has to worry about scoring 25+ ppg, dishing out assists, managing the game, etc, etc...all while purposely not guarding the other team's best players in many instances to prevent "potential" foul trouble, among other things. But if it came down to one play, one on one or in a team defense setting, I'd feel equally comfortable with Kobe out there defending as I would Bruce. Now you're completely underselling blocked shots, shot intimidation and defensive rebounding, all three of which Dwight is effectively the best (or one of the best) in the NBA at. In my view, interior defense is the most important part of defense generally...especially in today's NBA, where so little contact is allowed on the perimeter even average offensive players can get into the paint at will. Dwight's the best interior defender in the NBA, hands down. Now, he's no Hakeem, that's for sure...but who is? Hakeem was probably the best defensive player of the past 25 years. Disagree. Wouldn't say it's the strongest part of his defensive game, but he is not poor at it. Consider even the best of the best (Hakeem) still got scored on by good offensive players - it happens.
rings have nothing to do with being a great defensive player. lebron is one of the best players...but that doesnt mean is a great defensive player. Yes, they were given credit for being on the first team but like mentioned before, these awards are hardly gospel.
Maybe I should reply to OP's the other thread. I think this Rockets teams is more like the Kings than the Pistons. in the back court, the Kings had two all offense no defense plays in Bibby and Peja and a defense specialist, they also had one of the best backup PG who was fearless in the front court, they had their franchise player but he's injury prone, they also had two white guys and hopeflull, this Coach A's team will face the Lakers again and have a better results ...
