The one obvious missing car from this picture is the Passat--really a hybrid of the Audi A4 and A6 with a VW nameplate. It is without a doubt the best handling of the bunch and overall probablem the best driving one in general, though the reliability is average where those others are among the best of any cars on the road. Last year I look at the Passat plus the other 3, but decided on an older Nissan convertable because my wife and I don't need a 2nd car that much so it might as well be a fun one that won't depreciate rapidly with modest use (4 months late, I can say we choose wisely). Our other car is an American family car, not bad, but no where near the attention to detail as the other cars in this thread. If you want to spend less, I would go with the Accord or maybe the new Altima (see below note though) over an American family car model. You also have to factor in costs. The top of line Maxima or Passat cost about 5-6K more than the top of the line Accord, that is a big difference. The Camry is in between, but closer the the Maxima in price. For value, the Accord V6 EX is the best of the lot. The Camry is the least sporty unless you get the Solora, but if you are getting any 2-door coupe version of a Sedan why not just get a Celica or move up a little into a BMW coupe. I don't understand "family cars" sold as coupes, giving up the conveneince of 4 doors but not getting anything substantive in performace, maybe it just me. That new Maxima sounds pretty impressive (260 hp), if your thinking on that car you may want to compare it to mid-level BMW, I am thinking it would cost around that much. And BMWs have terrific resale and most owners love them. The Altima before had a pathetic engine, but maybe the redesigned one with a V6 makes it competitive with the Accord. One other thing about Nissan though, my mechanic said they were recently baught out by Renult I believe. That may impact quality at some point and make impact part availability rather soon (others have commented about this problem for Audi/VW a while ago). Just something to think about.
Very good point. I think the next Max is going to be a bigger car. The new Altima has basically taken the place of the existing Maxima and the new Max may move upscale as in a larger more-upscale vehicle. As for competing with 3-series cars, the new Z is supposed to cost about $30k (or slightly less) and does 0-60 in the 5's. That'll blow the doors off any stock 3-series (unless you count the M3 as a 3-series; I don't. ). If I recall, the 240hp version of the new Altima V6 will cost you about $24-$25k. By the way, the new V6 Altima does 0-60 in 6.3 seconds stock. There is nothing that Toyota or Honda have that can hang with that... yet. Supposedly one or the other (I think Honda; maybe both) is finally jacking up their engine to compete. You also made a good point about the Passat. I'm seriously thinking about that being a possibility for my next car. The only problem is that to get any juice out of the thing you really need the VR6, and at that point I think you go over $30k, right? I'd still take the Altima over that. That said, it's still a sweet car that's far more reliable now than it used to be. It used to be junk.
Agreed the Maxima is the best of the bunch, but also a bit more expensive. The Maxima has the best acceleration 6.7 secs 0-60 time, and handling of the three. Gotta love the white gauges and the flashy Euro-style dash. Exterior's got love it or hate it looks as do most Nissan's nowadays. Fast car that's fun to drive. The Honda Accord has always been a solid car with great value. Starting at $15K, it can run you up to $22 with all the bells and whistles. My parents bought a bramd new black EX V6 with leather, sunroof, etc. for $22K last year from Gillman. The car has good acceleration and above-average handling. The interior is VERY boring and plain. But if you need a solid car that is cheap and takes care of business, the Accord is for you. The worst of the bunch is the Camry. Good car, yes, but overpriced. Fully loaded runs you about $25K, and Sterling McCall is known for its ******* salesmen who refuse to help you. Camry is the epitome of a BORING car.
The 2002 model Maxima has the 260 hp engine in it and it's a V6 producing that 260hp, not a V8... how sweet... a non-aspirated 260hp V6... yeeehaw.
DoD: I wasn't for sure if it was a V8 or not. A girl I work with who has a '97 Maxima and whose husband (now her ex-husband) works at Nissan had told me it was a V8. However, I never got any confirmation if this was true or not. 260 hp out of a V6 may be the most that I ever heard of. That's one reason why I didn't dispute her about it being a V8. The other reason is that she is pretty damn good-looking!! However, judging by your posts on the Max, you seem to be the expert on it and a definite enthusiast. So, I stand corrected and thanks for letting me know that I was wrong without making me feel stupid.
That is EXACTLY why I will NEVER own a ricer. You can't do a damn thing to them without blowing your bank account. For $3,227.00, I could buy a complete racing suspension, and a new engine with nearly full mods for my car. I drive a Mustang GT 5.0. The chassis is from an '88 and the engine and interior are from a '93. It has just over 130K miles on it and that motor is still strong as hell. Sure, things have gone out but here's a news flash: Things go wrong with cars. There is only so much that certain parts on a vehicle can take, and after X-number miles, unless you are the exception and not the rule, things will go bad and you'll have to spend money to fix it. As for the "reliability" of Japanese cars, there are exceptions to every rule: I've known people who have dumped SO much cash into their rice cars, which they bought (wrongly) thinking "Oh, its a Japanese car. Nothing ever goes wrong with those," and I've known people who have driven their "unreliable" American cars well over 300K, without so much as an AC recharge. My uncle's '73 LTD with a huge 351ci 'Cleveland' motor comes to mind. The only maintenance he has ever performed on that car were regular oil and fluid changes. And I am NOT talking about people who race, either. The Ford 5.0 is famous for being able to go forever, and unless you do some serious racing, it will last forever. Whats more, with American cars, parts and labor are SO much cheaper. I'm not a mechanic, and I have done most of my repairs and upgrades myself. Due to the restricted space under a Japanese hood, and the compactness of the engine, it is SO hard to perform simple, regular maintenance yourself on an imported vehicle. The cost of parts is a LOT higher, since its an import, and jobs take longer due to the work required on those engines. For example: My girlfriend's brother has a Hyundai, and the timing belt needed to be changed as part of regular maintenance (needs to be changed every 60K miles, according to any mechanic you talk to and the owner's manuel). This cost over $500, and took two days to get the car back, so add 2 days cost for a rental. On a 4cyl Mustang for example (the V8s use a timing chain, not a belt), this can be done relatively easily in an afternoon for the cost of the belt itself, which is about $3-$5. I know you guys aren't discussing racing, but just to give you an idea of the expense of labor and parts for Japanese cars, here is a True Story: While out cruising one night, I pulled into a parking lot filled with people and their cars. You know what I'm talking about: where cruisers and racers stop to meet and show off under thier hoods, etc. I starting talking with some fellow 'Stangers, and I eventually started talking to some guy in a nice Civic. I asked him what it cost him for under the mods he had, and he (rather proudly) said over $17,500. I just about fell over. You could take that much cash and buy about 4 engines for my car, each different combos of parts and each fully equipped to blow the doors off of anything on the road. For the mods he had, he really didn't have much under the hood. Also for what he had, it would have cost me (I'll be generous here) maybe $5,000. I'll never understand people's fascination with Japanese cars. If I ever hve to get a 'practical' car, I'm gettin' a Taurus.
Lynus302, of course what you say is true, a well maintained American car will last longer than a poorly maintained car from the big 4 Japanse makers (Toyota, Nissan, Honda and Mazda). And sometimes there are lemons in any model. That said, statistically there is no comparison of their rates of problems/defects over time (using whichever figures you find--e.g., Consumer Reports, federal records, etc.), and the American cars are on the losing end. Also, my personal testaments are a little different than yours. My wife and I own one of each. I have been midly dissapointed in the Contour, which we baught new in 1996 and was well-maintained. Just a lot of little things went wrong, some annoying (e.g., crappy cup holders) and some more problematic (poorly designed engine sensors). You can tell the attention to detail just wasn't on par with an Accord or Camry. I have been happier with my used Honda, Toyota and now Nissan that I own. If we didn't get it for a really good deal (my wife's mother worked for a Ford subsidiary so we scored on it), I would say we made a bad decision. It is a nice handling and relatively quick car though, and given what we paid it has worked out OK. I will also say that high performance Japanese cars haven't fared much better reliability wise than your Mustang, with the possible exception of the RX-7s and 3000GTs. And as you say, parts can be outrageous for imports. But reliability isn't eveything. You have to consider value and I like to consider performance. It is latter why I mentioned the Passat. Also, DoD, do you really think that Maxima Z would go for around 30?? I would think invoice would be a couple thousand over 30 and sticker would be near 40. Of course this is just an educated guess because all I know about the car is from this thread. Sounds like they really improved the puny engine in the Altima and its styling seems much improved (its lines look somewhat like a Passat/Audi from that picture).
Originally posted by Desert Scar Lynus302, of course what you say is true, a well maintained American car will last longer than a poorly maintained car from the big 4 Japanse makers (Toyota, Nissan, Honda and Mazda). And sometimes there are lemons in any model. I wasn't saying that a "a well maintained American car will last longer than a poorly maintained car from the big 4 Japanese makers." What I was saying was that the simple maintenance is so much simpler and cheaper on a domestic. Simple upkeep of an American car is much cheaper than on an import, and most of it you can do yourself if you are so inclined, saving you more money. As I said earlier, I am not a mechanic, and I've probably saved myself between $2,000-$3,000 just by doing the simple stuff myself. And this isn't just on my Mustang, but on all of my family menbers' cars, which all happen to be Fords. $500 and two days to fix a friggin' timing belt on an import??!!!?!? No thank you. Give me an American car and an afternoon, and (if I like you ) it'll cost you about 5 bucks and a 6-pack. That said, statistically there is no comparison of their rates of problems/defects over time (using whichever figures you find--e.g., Consumer Reports, federal records, etc.), and the American cars are on the losing end. When we initially started importing cars, yes just about every import was more reliable than what we had domestically. Fortunately, American cars have only gotten more reliable and have become better in the handling dept as well. Also, my personal testaments are a little different than yours. My wife and I own one of each. I have been midly dissapointed in the Contour, which we baught new in 1996 and was well-maintained. Just a lot of little things went wrong, some annoying (e.g., crappy cup holders) and some more problematic (poorly designed engine sensors). You can tell the attention to detail just wasn't on par with an Accord or Camry. I have been happier with my used Honda, Toyota and now Nissan that I own. If we didn't get it for a really good deal (my wife's mother worked for a Ford subsidiary so we scored on it), I would say we made a bad decision. It is a nice handling and relatively quick car though, and given what we paid it has worked out OK. I wouldn't compare a Contour with an Accord or Camry. I would expect the latter two to be more powerful with better handling and amenities than the Ford Contour, which replaced the Escort. I would expect those to be better-made vehicles. I will also say that high performance Japanese cars haven't fared much better reliability wise than your Mustang, with the possible exception of the RX-7s and 3000GTs. And as you say, parts can be outrageous for imports. Reliability-wise, I couldn't be happier with my car. The cost of upkeep and upgrades is about 3-4x less than on any Japanese car vs. a domestic. But reliability isn't eveything. You have to consider value and I like to consider performance. It is latter why I mentioned the Passat. Yeah, I know that. I never said otherwise. Japanese cars tend to handle better stock than their American counterparts, but the handling in American cars in recent years has gotten MUCH better, and IMO is just about on par with anything coming out of Japan. As for how sports cars go, you have to look at tradition: American racers have traditionally been more interested in the straight-line acceleration of drag racing, while European and Japanese tradition has been more inclined to road racing and thus, handling. But our stuff is up to their levels. I'd take a new Mustang or a Camaro vs. a 3000GT in the turns with confidence. For the sake of this debate, we should compare the mentioned Japanese cars with Domestics like a Ford Taurus. Yeah, the imports might handle better, but not much so. My mom just bought a 2001 Taurus, and that thing handles very well, and I'm amazed at the power it puts out. I never would have thought that 205 horses could move such a heavy car the way they do in this one. Handling is excellent, as is the power. All that, and maintenance will be a lot cheaper than any comparable Japanese car, whether I do any of the work myself or not.
Actually in price, size, weight, features, etc., the Contour is a fair comparison to the base Accord, base Camry and all Altimas. The Contour is also quicker than all these models (with the V6, the engine I have) and handles very well. The Contour was between the level of the Escort (which was replaced by the Focus) and the Taurus. I actually like the car (drives very well), but because of some lack of attention to details I mentioned and some more minor but annoying problems I would not recommend it against the others we talked about. American cars have improved in reliability, but there is still no comparison to the Japanese made family sedan by any statistics you look at. If your taking your family through the desert or snow and you want the least amount of chance you get stuck you go with an Accord, Maxima or Camry. Lynus, in my view you too easily dismiss this issue's importance for many people. But again, reliability isn't the only important thing in choosing a car. Value and performance (if you have the luxory to factor this in) are just 2 others.
Manny, everything I've heard is that it will be the new VQ series 3.5L engine powering the new Maxima will be out in 2003. Bummer. I thought it would come a bit earlier, but I can wait. Nissan's also bringing the Skyline over to the US (finally!). All the best Japanese cars seem to stay overseas and that's a pisser. I could be wrong about the V6 vs. the V8, though. Who knows. There are rumors that the V6 will be standard with a V8 as an option. BTW, the Altima is a V6 that makes 240 HP and the Acura NSX initially made about 270-280 hp I think; it may still. The engine in the Max *may* be the same engine or a modified version of the engine in the new Z which is a V6 - 260 hp engine (I know that one for fact... hehe). Like I said man, you may be right about that new Max engine; we'll just have to wait and see... I've already saved up for my next car, but my current Max shows no signs of even minor problems yet, so I'll wait... ... The Altima has a 240hp engine, does 0-60 in 6.3, carries a family, is a 4 door vehicle, and can cost under $23k. Bring it on Toyota and Honda!
Desert Scar, The comment about the Z's pricing of course is just a wild ass guess, but it's a guess based on rumors circulating from within Nissan itself. I also believe one of the Nissan officials stated that $30k is their target price. It may cost a bit more, you're right. As for the Altima's puny engine, I agree completely. The Altima engine was a freakin' joke. It was a car without an identity. Nissan couldn't give it a V6 because then it would compete directly with the Maxima. I guess they swallowed their pride because the current Altima has superceded the Maxima in terms of performance (although I haven't seen accel times on this year's Max which will have the 260 hp engine in it). I don't really care for the interior styling of the new Altima though. Now the Z's styling with its wild color scheme and metallic interior looks gorgeous.
Lynus, What the heck were all those references to "rice" and "ricers"? Whatever they were, they were not very well thought out.
::sheepish:: Urk....yeah you're right there on all points. My bad. American cars have improved in reliability, but there is still no comparison to the Japanese made family sedan by any statistics you look at. If your taking your family through the desert or snow and you want the least amount of chance you get stuck you go with an Accord, Maxima or Camry. Lynus, in my view you too easily dismiss this issue's importance for many people. That's my point though. In my experience, American cars are as reliable. I've been on cross-country trips with my family my whole life, always in an American car. I went from Houston to Anchorage, AL round-trip back in the early '80s in a Buick, and my uncle did the same trip throughout the late '70s to early '80s several times in a late-'70s Ford F-series truck, and in his '73 LTD as well. Not to mention my 700 mile round-trip drives between Houston and Abilene for college in my Mustang. None of us ever had a problem. Like I said, there are lemons in every bunch and exceptions to every rule. But in my experience, (most) Domestics are every bit as reliable as (most) imports. If you think imports are more reliable, then fine; I just wanted to chime in my $.02 for the sake of this debate. A buddy of mine will never drive a Chevrolet due to one time when he was off-roading with a friend and the door fell off the truck. I'm dedicated FoMoCo, so despite my loyalty to Ford (which more or less means I'm supposed to hate Chevrolet), I highly doubt that the doors on Chevy trucks are likely to fall off on a regular basis. I absolutely am not not taking reliability into consideration here. I think it is the most important factor in a daily driver. You obviously don't follow street racing, which is perfectly okay. Every person who is "into" cars has disdain for every brand other than his own. Ford guys refer to Chevy guys as: Bowties, Slowmaro, etc. while Chevy guys refer to Ford guys as SlowMoCo, and F.O.R.D= Fix Or Repair Daily, etc. and the list goes on. Most of the rivalry exists between Mustang owners and Camaro/Firebird owners. Drivers of the two refer to Japanese cars as Ricers and Rice-burners. To the outside world, I suppose that sounds very racial, but in the car world, its not. It's just a term of disdain or used to razz your friends, just like SlowMoCo, Slowmaro, etc. I've got good buddies who drive all of the above. Believe me, the Asians take their stabs as well, using the reputation of 'unreliable' American cars as ammo in ways that could be seen as just as malicious and hateful. Among friends, its just razzing; among non-friends, its (usually) not used as a hateful thing. Losing to a Slomaro or a Firechicken isn't nearly as embarrassing as losing to a Ricer (believe me, I've done both), but hey, its all in good fun anyway. I hope that sheds some light, and I'm sorry if I offended you.
I can gladly say our Contour did not strand me, my wife, our Elkhound or our cat in the Mohave desert about 1 year ago (it was about 110 when we stopped for gas). In fact the Contour hasn't ever stranded us, so I guess I was being dramatic. I still don't like the minor bugs though, and for our next family car I would go with one from Nissan or Honda (Toyota's are fine cars, but I think it is harder to get at any discount new or used, plus the Camry is more boring to me than the others). If I am in the (doubtfull) position to get a new car down the line solely for play, a Corvette Convertable would probably be it.
For those still interested : The new Camry looks like it's learned something from the last Lexus LS 300 as they kind of look alike. The front does anyway. The rear looks like a Hyundai. http://carpoint.msn.com/homepage/launchpage.asp?idModel=10158&Make=Toyota&Type=NML
