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The future of the EU and the UK, post-Brexit

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by MojoMan, Dec 4, 2016.

  1. pirc1

    pirc1 Contributing Member

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  2. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    What is the charge? We do not have a crime here for politicians (arguably) lying and misleading people. If the British do, what is it?

    This sound like nonsense, but it should be interesting to watch and see what happens next with it.
     
  3. biff17

    biff17 Member

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    if you actually read the article it explains the law.
     
    Nook, malakas and No Worries like this.
  4. DonnyMost

    DonnyMost be kind. be brave.
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    This thread is an absolute hoot to read from the beginning.
     
  5. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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  6. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

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    Tick tock. Tick tock.
     
  7. malakas

    malakas Member

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    Well LePen in the end even though got about 1 million more votes will have the exact number of MEPs as Macron's.

    I have talked to multiple italians and they all just attribute Salvini's power to a temporary reaction to rampant illegal immigration and the economic crisis.
    However Hungary is different.

    I remember some 6-7 years ago I went to stay with some friends in Hungary, not in the cosmopolitan centre of Budapest where they put their best behaviour and they are used to tourists and cater to them but to some rural town in the middle of the country.
    The Real Hungary not touristic one.
    Let me tell you that even then, years before Orban came to power the clima was extremely racistic, nationalistic and xenophobic. You could see young people moving in skinhead gangs, admiring fascists, when getting drunk at parties screaming their national anthem loudly in tears like they felt they were under threat of their national identity.
    I was clearly told that the dream of every young hungarian boy is to become a policeman so he could own a gun. Me and my friends with our mediterranean looks were harassed by strangers, young people at that, while just walking the streets sightseeing without any provocation and told to gtfo.

    Salvini's base of power is unstable and temporary while Orban's is not, the xenophobic racistic attitude of Hungarians have been cultivated for at least one decade.

    Here nothing unexpected really happened except the far right got a relativelly high percentage 13%, in young people 18-24 y.o. Otherwise everyone expected the PM would announce elections. We didnt' only vote for EU but also for county, municipal and local councils. We had 4 votings in the same day. Well next month we will have the other possible one, national elections.
    Nothing really changed the centre right will win, emphasis on the centre. In comparison with other countries the right here could even be called socialist. In comparison with the USA it will be called communist LMAO.

    I can understand why the young people voted extreme right as a protest vote. I even find myself becoming more and more right leaning watching my island getting literally destroyed with arabs and pakistanis illegal immigrants.
    However since they are literally criminals those at Golden Dawn I would never vote for them even as a protest.
     
  8. malakas

    malakas Member

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    I don't believe they will.
    Due to their different agendas that many times are also opposite it is impossible to gather under one coalition.
    Salvini wants to send the illegals to other countries under quotas, it is one of his most fundamental policies he wants to implement, Orban and the Polish on the other hand want nothing to do with that. Also Salvini is philoCremlinist smth everyone else looks at with extreme suspicion. Even economically these right wingers are opposites.
    Not to mention the Brexit party that has ZERO policy and is there only to create trouble if they could.

    Without making a coalition the nationalists don't have enough MEPs each on their own to make any power play. Every other EU party will be hell bent against them.

    The label is stuck but I think we have reached a point it's not even correct to call the nationalists and rightwingers, eurosceptics at this point. They don't want to leave the EU they want to change it from the inside.
    Well for now at least.
     
  9. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    The German Bundestag's foreign affairs committee chair Norbert Roettgen has warned that Germany will block another extension request by the UK unless the UK commits to holding a second referendum. This seems very reasonable and logical to me, as it the disruption of efforts to solve other problems and to promote integration efforts among EU countries that actually believe in that project are huge.

    Germany vows to block Brexit extension unless UK pledges another EU referendum

    Germany will block another delay to Brexit at the European Council unless the UK announces a second referendum or general election by October, the Bundestag's foreign affairs committee chair has warned.

    In a sign that Berlin is near the end of its tether on Brexit, Norbert Rottgen, a former minister and senior MP for Germany's ruling CDU party, said there could be no extension to the Article 50 process unless the UK offered a concrete reason, such as a public vote.

    He also warned Tory leadership candidates against trying to "blackmail" the EU by threatening to leave with no deal unless the Brexit deal is changed.​

    That said, I will not be holding my breath in anticipation of this actually happening, but it would sure simplify matters if it does.
     
  10. juicystream

    juicystream Contributing Member

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    Misuse of public office. It is weird compared to here. It is like a civil case in that an individual rather than the government brought the charges, but appears to still be criminal in nature rather than suing for money.
     
  11. Gdaliya

    Gdaliya Member

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    I do feel that leaving Europe 2 years ago makes me a bit of an outsider compared to people that do live in Europe (especially considering that I only follow news about Belgium).

    My biggest issue with the elections results in France is that people put to much emphasis on LePen victory and ignore the really bad results of the "traditional" centre right.

    Salvini is hard phenomena to fully understand, I dont belive it's only reactionary.
    I also don't know enough about his political opponents to see if there are some big time names there.

    Been to Hungary 8 years ago and I totally understand what you say.
    I have my own theory about why it is that way but we'll be getting too of topic here.
    I'm not questioning Orban succes and conutonicy I question his affiliation I don't think that his European party reflects his ideology and political agenda.

    I do remember Greek island fondly, great vacation, great food, warm people.
    Sad to hear about what happens to your island.


    Been a long time since I heard the name Golden Dawn but it looks like overall they lost some of their power.
    The last time I heard about them was in 2012 about what happend in the debate.
     
  12. Gdaliya

    Gdaliya Member

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    I do belive thst they'll get one, some of them will find a way to form a coalition.

    My guess is that the Brexit party would be an easy pickup due to their lack of policy and limited time.

    Like you said they want to change Europe from within and I belive that some of them are smart enough to understand that they have to compromise in other to make it happen.

    If I have to guess I can see LePen teaming up with some other parties in a bid to form a "euroskeptic" group.
     
  13. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    Jeremy Corbyn is still trying to ride two horses by insisting that the Labour party supports the 2016 referendum result for the UK to leave the EU, while at the same time remaining open to the idea of a second referendum, without actually endorsing such a move.

    It is all a bit confusing.

    Corbyn backs soft Brexit and says second referendum 'some way off'

    Jeremy Corbyn has said a second referendum is “some way off” and that Labour still wants to negotiate a better Brexit deal, resisting pressure from shadow cabinet ministers to commit to campaigning immediately for a public vote.

    Speaking in Dublin, the Labour leader said the only way to break the deadlock would be a general election or a second referendum after negotiating a softer Brexit deal with Brussels.

    Corbyn said there must not be a repeat of the 2016 referendum on Britain’s EU membership, and argued that Labour could strike a better agreement with Brussels that would include a customs union, which would then be put to a public vote.

    He said: “We don’t back a rerun of 2016. That happened. That is gone. What I do say is that if parliament comes to an agreement, then it’s reasonable, and if parliament wishes it, there should be a public vote on it but that is some way off.”​

    So, let's be clear. The UK Labour party is officially a pro-Brexit party. But a great many traditional Labour supporters are not.

    Corbyn 'listening very carefully' to Labour calls for second referendum

    The Labour leader said he was “listening very carefully” to both sides of the debate after the party fell into third place behind the Liberal Democrats and also lost ground to the Greens. He said Labour’s preference would be a general election but any Brexit deal “has to be put to a public vote”.

    It comes after two of his allies, John McDonnell and Diane Abbott, hardened their positions on Monday in favour of a “people’s vote”. Tom Watson, Labour’s deputy leader, Keir Starmer, the shadow Brexit secretary, and Emily Thornberry, the shadow foreign secretary, also added to growing calls for a second referendum, with Labour campaigning to remain.

    However, moves to back a second referendum under any circumstances faced immediate resistance from some wings of the party – including Unite’s general secretary, Len McCluskey, and close Corbyn allies in the shadow cabinet such as the party chair, Ian Lavery, and the shadow Cabinet Office minister, Jon Trickett.

    Amid the conflicting calls, Corbyn said he would consult Labour members, affiliates, MPs and shadow cabinet ministers as the party’s approach to Brexit is reviewed.​

    If the Labour party declares for a second referendum, they will lose huge amounts of support from the midlands, where many Labour voters support Brexit. In fact, Jeremy Corbyn himself has for many years been somewhat of a Eurosceptic and has always stated that he preferred to leave the EU.

    But if they do not support a second referendum, Labour party members who support a second referendum have already demonstrated their willingness to transfer their support to the Liberal Democrat party, which does openly support a second referendum.

    The Labour party is still for the moment a pro-Brexit party. But politically, they are in a very tough spot.
     
  14. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    President Trump has endorsed Boris Johnson to be the next Prime Minister of the UK.

    Brexit LIVE: Donald Trump endorses Boris Johnson for PM – ‘He would be excellent’


    DONALD TRUMP has thrown his support behind leading Brexiteer Boris Johnson to be Britain’s next Prime Minister just weeks before Conservative members head to the polls to decide their new leader.

    The US President spoke of his admiration for the former foreign secretary and revealed that he has been “begged” by other leadership candidates to support them ahead of the crucial vote this June. Boris Johnson is the current favourite to clinch the leadership race, closely followed by Michael Gove and Dominic Raab.

    But Mr Johnson faces the historical threat that the early leading candidate has never gone on to win the contest, with David Davis famously losing the 2005 leadership race to David Cameron despite being odds-on to take the top job.​

    Surely this could be regarded as some as foreign interference in the democratic processes of the UK. In fact, it is. But will this help Boris to win the Prime Minister's job? I suspect it will not have any noticeable positive effect, which was also the case for the Russian interference in our elections on numerous occasions over the past 50 years as well.
     
  15. malakas

    malakas Member

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    There are so far 12 candidates with 3 more likely. Most of them like Andrea Leanstrom are only declaring so they can weasel their way to a good post in the next cabinet by selling of their support.

    There are 5 serious candidates. Raab, Johnson, Gove, Javid and maybe Hunt.

    Since all of them are ruling out elections and are Brexiters the deciding factor is the moderate part of the party.
    Johnson is trying to pass himself " except from the extreme right on Brexit , on the extreme left of the party on every other policy" to try to woe them.
    So far the moderates have started the movement " Stop Raab" to drop him out of the race.
    Raab believes in tax cuts, privatisation of schools and made some statements that he is not a feminist- which prompted the rest of the candidates to state that they are.

    So safe to say that a real right winger like Raab will be sabotaged and dropped out.
    Johnson is seen the lesser of two evils compared to Raab.

    Gove promised that he will give nationality to 3 million eu residents even if they just arrived a day before the referendum.
    Javid is seen as just meh with nothing new to offer.


    I believe the most likely final two will be Gove and Johnson.
     
  16. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    I do not have a crystal ball or anything, but Gove is sharp as a tack. He seems like the man to beat to me, even though the media apparently has anointed Johnson as the presumptive front-runner.
     
  17. Commodore

    Commodore Contributing Member

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  18. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    Laughable that you consider trump endorsing a candidate in another country's democratic election with a shrug, and worse compare it to (and also give it a shrug) a foreign adversary actively working to influence America's election (which they did, according to all of America's intelligence community AND Mueller's investigation into Russian cooperation with trump and his campaign.

    Mueller Report

    Robert Mueller statement, May 29, 2019
     
  19. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    If only you were so passionate when Barack Obama was campaigning in the UK against Brexit, in favor of Remain.

    President Obama in Britain to Urge Voters Against Brexit | Time
     
  20. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    How does Obama urging against Brexit, a global impact compare to campaigning for a PM, or more important, russian influencing an American campaign in favor of a candidate?
     

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