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The Formal Impeachment Inquiry of Trump

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by RESINator, Sep 24, 2019.

  1. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

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    Even more on the banality theme:

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Ha. Yes, the Democrats turned it into a a partisan ordeal even though the Republicans have treated it with respect and sanctity.

    Remember when the Democrats stages a spectacle pretending they were locked out of hearings that they were allowed to attend? Remember when the Democrats have changed their story dozens of times and now most of them admit the President was wrong but are still trying decry the process in order to not hold the President accountable? Remember when the Democrats couldn't really say that Trump didn't do it so made a big stink about the word of people who have given their service to this nation for decades in completely non-partisan ways? Remember when the Democrats brought in a clown and had him act like he was counsel for them?

    How dare they undermine the Republicans who have treated the inquiry with such respect and sanctity.
     
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  3. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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  4. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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  5. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    Can trump be any more pathetic? He will attack dishonestly anyone to defend himself...

     
  6. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    So basically, by releasing this new version of a "transcript" trump admits that his previous version released was a complete lie...

     
  7. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

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    Don't worry, He's not even watching, according to "press secretary" Stephanie Grisham!

    I guess he took some time off from working hard to turn on the TV and live tweet his reactions - who would have guessed he could find the time.
     
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  8. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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  9. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Yet again, you go out of your way to attack the leadership of the Democratic Party, and to belittle a very serious impeachment inquiry by the Democratic majority in the House, an exercise that is exceedingly rare. Odd behavior for a person self-described as a "Democrat," conservative or otherwise. I won't attempt to understand what you were trying to say to FB.


    I just watched the opening statement of Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch. It was very impressive, as is Ambassador Yovanovitch. This will be a very interesting morning.
     
  10. Nook

    Nook Member

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    It shines a light on what congressmen will do when push comes to shove.
     
  11. mtbrays

    mtbrays Contributing Member
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    Even those like Hurd who are retiring from Congress. How baller is it really to be a Congressman? Is it really worth debasing yourself constantly?
     
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  12. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    He's annoyed that I pointed out his first article talking about the ratings of the televised hearings were irrelevant and a waste of time. This is his passive-aggressive way of trying to get back at me.

    #SteveCastor
     
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  13. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    Thanks for clearing that up, FB.

    As I said a little bit ago, I'm watching the testimony of Ambassador Yovanovitch. Chairman Schiff interrupted the questioning of the ambassador by the Democratic counsel to tell her that while she has been testifying, she's being attacked by Mr trump by his usual method, tweets. Tweets filled, as is also usual, with lies, and in this case, lies about her record. It's shocking that the leadership of our country has fallen this low. The man has no shame.
     
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  14. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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  15. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

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    Hurd has political ambitions, including potentially running for president down the line.

    Republicans are very aware that if they turn on Trump their political future in the party is over. Republicans greatly underestimated just how much of their party is in line with Trump's view of the world.
     
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  16. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    a poignant response
     
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  17. BigDog63

    BigDog63 Member

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  18. Nook

    Nook Member

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    You give Billy Graham too much credit.
     
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  19. Amiga

    Amiga 10 years ago...
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    This. If you are NOT loyal to Trump, you need to know that you cannot be part of the Republican party. These people know it. Retiring from Congress isn't a release for them. The only release is to no longer be part of the GOP, which many aren't ready to do so.
     
  20. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    here's Jonathan Turley on the Democrats' impeachment case. I'll have to defer to @B-Bob to see if the physics checks out. ;)

    https://jonathanturley.org/2019/11/15/are-the-democrats-building-a-collapsible-impeachment/

    Are The Democrats Building A Collapsible Impeachment?
    November 15, 2019

    As impeachment hearings begin, some have raised dubious objections to the process from a constitutional basis. Former acting Attorney General Matthew Whitaker suggested there can be no impeachment since “abuse of power” is not a crime. Northwestern University Law Professor Steven Calabresi argued that President Trump was denied the Sixth Amendment right to counsel in the closed hearings held by House Democrats.

    Neither argument is compelling. The fact is that, if proven, a quid pro quo to force the investigation of a political rival in exchange for military aid can be impeachable, if proven. Yet the more immediate problem for House Democrats may not be constitutional but architectural in nature. If they want to move forward primarily or exclusively with the Ukraine controversy, it would be the narrowest impeachment in history. Such a slender foundation is a red flag for architects who operate on the accepted 1:10 ratio between the width and height of a structure.

    The physics is simple. The higher the building, the wider the foundation. There is no higher constitutional structure than the impeachment of a sitting president and, for that reason, an impeachment must have a wide foundation in order to be successful. The Ukraine controversy is not such a foundation, and Democrats continue to build a structurally unsound case that will be lucky to make it to the Senate before collapsing.

    For three years, Democrats in Congress have insisted that a variety of criminal and impeachable acts were established as part of the Russia investigation. Even today, critics of Trump insist that, at a minimum, special counsel Robert Mueller found as many as ten acts of criminal obstruction of justice. That is not true as he investigated those acts of obstruction but found evidence of noncriminal motivations that would have made any criminal case highly unlikely to succeed. For that reason, Attorney General William Barr and then Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein agreed there was no case for criminal obstruction.

    Putting aside that legal judgment, the glaring absence of any articles of impeachment related to Russia would raise a rather obvious problem. If these criminal or impeachable acts are so clear, why would Democrats not include them in the actual impeachment? There are only two possible reasons why these “clearly established” crimes would not be included. Either they are not established, as some of us have argued, or Democratic leaders do not actually want to remove Trump from office.

    For three years, some of us have warned that Democratic leaders clearly were running out the clock on impeachment and doing little in terms of building a case against Trump. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has been openly hostile to impeachment. Now, after moving at a glacial pace, Democratic leaders are insisting on an impeachment vote on the basis of a presidential phone call made this summer. They are in such a hurry that they have said they will not even seek to compel the testimony of key witnesses like former national security adviser John Bolton.

    Ironically, the strongest impeachment was the one that never happened with President Nixon. It was so strong that he resigned shortly before a vote. The contrast with the Nixon impeachment is so concerning in the current context. In the Nixon impeachment, public opinion shifted after months of public hearings and testimony. The evidentiary record showed that Nixon knew of criminal acts and sought to conceal them.

    The result was a deeply developed evidentiary record. A presidential impeachment requires this period of maturation of allegations to swing public opinion. In contrast, after years of discussing Russia allegations, Democrats want to move forward on a barely developed evidentiary record and cursory public hearings on this single Ukraine allegation. Democrats also are moving forward on a strictly partisan vote.

    That brings us back to architecture. Bad buildings often are built in slapdash fashion. The infamous Fidenae Stadium in Rome was built in a rush to restart the gladiator games, an atmosphere not unlike the current bread and circus frenzy in Washington. It eventually collapsed, killing or injuring 20,000 spectators. The two prior impeachments show the perils of building slender and tall. Take, for instance, the foundation of the Clinton impeachment. I testified during those hearings, as one of the constitutional experts, that President Clinton could be impeached for lying under oath, regardless of the subject matter. Democratic witnesses and members insisted that such perjury is not an impeachable offense when it concerned an affair with a White House intern.

    The Clinton impeachment was broader than the one being discussed against Trump but it still was quite narrow. It did involve an alleged knowingly criminal act committed by Clinton. A federal judge later found that Clinton committed perjury, a crime for which he was never charged, despite thousands of Americans who have faced such charges and jail. Yet Clinton was impeached on lying to the grand jury and obstruction of the Monica Lewinsky investigation. Notably, he was not indicted on other allegations, like abuse of power in giving pardons to his own brother or Democratic donor Marc Rich. The result was an acquittal in the Senate by a largely partisan vote. The articles discussed against Trump would be even narrower and rest primarily on an abuse of power theory.

    Then there is the impeachment of President Johnson, which also failed in the Senate. While encompassing nearly a dozen articles, it was narrowly grounded in an alleged violation of the Tenure of Office Act. Johnson removed War Secretary Edwin Stanton in defiance of Congress and that law. The impeachment was indeed weak and narrow, and it failed, with the help of senators from the opposing party who would not stand for such a flawed removal, even of Johnson, who was widely despised.

    The Leaning Tower of Pisa is a reminder of those who strive for great heights without worrying about their foundations. If Democrats seek to remove a sitting president, they are laying a foundation that would barely support a bungalow, let alone a constitutional tower. Such a slender impeachment would collapse in a two mile headwind in the Senate. Much like the Burning Man structure raised each year in the Nevada desert, this impeachment may well be intended to last only as long as it takes to burn it to the ground.

    Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law at George Washington University. He served as the last lead counsel in a Senate impeachment trial and testified as a constitutional expert in the Clinton impeachment hearings. You can follow him on Twitter @JonathanTurley.
     

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