Oh, boy - I vehemently disagree with this. The All-Star game is a *game* in which you need players to fill specific roles in order to play that game. That is not close to what the Hall of Fame is. You are not making a team. The Hall of Fame doesn't *have* to have a relief pitcher. I would argue a more nuanced point, re: voters, which is that they really ****ed up putting in Fingers, Sutter, Smith and Hoffman. Even if we all agree closers should be viable HoF candidates, I mean... I just don't see their candidacies as being very vital. Hoffman went in on the same wave that used to sweep in 300-win pitchers, I think. In 10 years, as the voters continues to evolve, I don't think players like Hoffman & Smith are getting in. (Fingers, similar to Rivera, does have some postseason juice as he was a vital part of a two-time champ. But... I just don't think a 25 bWAR should merit consideration.) To me, that's the crux of the Wagner argument: he was better than Hoffman, and if Hoffman is in..... But we can't use lowest common denominator for something like the HoF, IMO. I don't want people using Harold Baines to argue so-and-so hitter should be in.
I just don't think WAR is going to be much of a factor with closers. I don't have it up - but Kimbrel is... 7 saves away from jumping into the top 5. Jensen is not far behind him. I think top 5 starts their conversation. After that, if you look at their rate stats, etc, both guys compare favorably to Wagner. I'm struggling to come up with an argument to keep either out - *if* they jump into that top 5.
Possible that Edwin Diaz and Josh Hader pass them before they would get elected. Do you think K-Rod should/will get in? He actually had a similar first ballot showing to Wagner, but dropped below 8% in year 2.
If the decision is to exclude closers/relievers from the hall then I submit that DH's have no place there either. They play no position and in truth that makes them something other than baseball players. While we are at it, now that all pitchers are excluded from hitting they are not really baseball players either. I frankly give O ***** about the hall of fame. What the media thinks about anything is pretty meaningless. Excluding anyone is just more media self importance. It is arrogant for a group of writers to think they have a right to exclude anyone.
Hader & Diaz both have those insane K/9 numbers, which really stand out. But they're both probably too "old" to chase save total milestones - Hader needs 135 saves to get to 300. In a bullpen with Pressly and Abreu, I'm guessing he's going to land in the ~30 saves/season range moving forward? Very plausible - but, he's also be well into his 30s. No. And I hope not, LOL. NO MORE CLOSERS!
Lance Berkman was an extremely lazy big league baseball player. That wasn't a perception - it was a fact. I was working for the Astros for part of that time, I saw it with my own eyes, I heard other players and coaches talk about it and marvel about it. Other than a small group of guys with addiction issues or mental illness - no one could compare to Berkman and his lack of conditioning, training or concern. He was an amazing natural baseball player, but he cut his own success off early because of his lack of conditioning, which really impacted him later in his career. The fact that he finally lost some weight when he went to the Cardinals pissed off the coaches in Houston to a great degree.
He was the #1 pick in the draft as a high schooler.... went on to win an MVP, finished in the top 5 a handful of times.... won three batting titles, lead the league in WAR one year and top 5 a handful of times.... retired with an average over .300 and was a catcher. He didn't have a long career, but his WAR per 162 was 5...... so I think he was a Hall of Fame career when you consider that he was a catcher. Buster Posey has the titles - but he is a first ballot guy, and someone can argue that Mauer is even better.
Counting statistics don't matter as much as they used to. Mauer lead the league in WAR one season - won 3 batting titles, multiple Gold Gloves and had a very high rate of WAR per game played... that is why he is in. He also was considered a strong handler of pitchers and leader. The fact he has a shorter career means less because he was a catcher. Molina will get in because of his glove - that he won titles and was on the same team for so long and has a strong reputation amongst those in the game - but IMO Mauer and Posey were far better ball players.
I wonder how much that contributed to his falling out with Wayne Graham when he returned to Rice to help "coach"... those bad habits being communicated to younger players then gunning for his job...
Molina having positive WAR every year after being 35 is... stunning. For comparison sake, McCann retired after his age 35 season.
The use of greenies (amphetamines) by guys like Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Pete Rose, Wille Stargell, Mike Schmidt and Cal Ripken is known but seldom discussed. Then you have long has very little discussion of the use of steroids by pitchers - as they have largely been given a free pass. This goes back to the early 70's. Tom House said he used very strong steroids in the the big leagues in the 1970's and said that at least 5-6 pitchers on every big league staff in that era used them. There have been whispers of Vida Blue, Luis Tiant and other top tier pitchers using steroids. Cocaine use was out of control in the late 70's.... Tim Raines, Bill Matlock, George Foster, Dave Parker, Ron Washington, Tim Raines, Dale Berra and Keith Hernandez are just a few players that were deep into it...... that doesn't even count Strawberry, Gooden, Howe and others.
I don't know honestly as I don't know anyone involved with Rice at that time period. I do know that Lance Berkman when was with the Astros did not really same much about social issues at all, and overtime he became more religious and more outspoken on social issues - and it is possible that is part of the issue with Rice - but that is just my speculation. I know that a former teammate of his said it is hard to retain a relationship with him because all he does is talk religion and social issues.
I’m suggesting the bar needs to be extremely high; I’ve never advocated for excluding anyone. And getting 4 AB/game is significantly more impactful than pitching 4 innings/week. Come on. A DH will accumulate as many plate appearances as a position player. A closer will total roughly 1/4 of a reliable starter’s innings. Having said that, I have no issue with raising the the bar and insisting a DH has to be a historically good hitter to fill in for the lack of defense. That seems reasonable, doesn’t it? In Edgar Martinez’s first 12 full seasons, he totaled 62.2 bWAR. Wagner, in his 12-year career, totaled 27.8. There’s just no comparison. And in their primes, nobody is trading Martinez for Billy Wagner.
Bill Madlock- I believe he is the only 4X Batting Champ not in the HOF. Lifetime .305 Dave Parker has an even better case- 7x All-Star, 2X WS Champ, MVP, 2 Batting Titles, 3 Gold Gloves, 2,712 Hits.
My post was meant to be a little tongue in cheek but truth is I am as big an ******* as you on this issue. I do not count DH's among baseball players. Baseball players are required to throw the ball and catch the ball as well as hitting the ball. Pitchers are required to hit at every level of baseball except MLB, and MLB required it of them until they made up the phoney balogna DH position. I may not care about the hall of fame but I care deeply about the game and re defining it to fit television programing makes me sick. Today TV has less to do with baseball than it has in nearly 100 years. So why are we still living with changes meant to make lives easier for TV networks?
Letting the least athletic players extend their careers at DH is more of an abomination than excusing pitchers from hitting.
Roger Clemens would like a word... It's just funny you listed Tim Raines twice - the guy who did all the cocaine; the guy who slid head first into bases because he didn't want to break the cocaine vile he routinely kept in his back pants pocket. that guy.
When he retired he didn't think he had a snowballs chance in hell of getting the call, I don't think many people did. If he did think that, I highly doubt he retires after having the lowest ERA of his career.
