1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Scientific Analysis Suggests Presidential Vote Counts May Have Been Altered

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by No Worries, Apr 4, 2005.

  1. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1999
    Messages:
    30,147
    Likes Received:
    17,078
    Things that make me go hmmmm ...

    Scientific Analysis Suggests Presidential Vote Counts May Have Been Altered
    by US Vote Counts
    March 30, 2005

    Study Will Be Released Tomorrow March 31st
    Group of University Professors Urges Investigation of 2004 Election

    Officially, President Bush won November's election by 2.5%, yet exit polls showed Kerry winning by 3%[1] <#_ftn1>. According to a report to be released March 31^st by a group of university statisticians, the odds of a discrepancy this large between the national exit poll and election results happening by accident are close to 1 in a million.

    In other words, by random chance alone, it could not have happened. But it did.

    Two alternatives remain. Either something was wrong with the exit polling, or something was wrong with the vote count.

    Exit polls have a long history of exceptional accuracy in past decades in the US, in the Ukraine, in Latin America, in Germany, and elsewhere. Yet in November 2004, the discrepancy was more than five times this (and similar to that of the invalid Ukraine election.[2] <#_ftn2>)

    In a recent survey of US members of the world's oldest and largest computer society, The Association for Computing Machinery, 95% opposed software driven un-auditable voting machines[3] <#_ftn3>, of the type that now count at least 30% of U.S. votes. The vast majority of today's electronic vote-counting machines are not built with basic safeguards that would prevent and detect machine or human caused errors, be they innocent or deliberate.[4] <#_ftn4>

    The consortium that conducted the presidential exit polls, Edison/Mitofsky, issued a report in January suggesting that the discrepancy between election results and exit polls occurred because Bush voters were more reticent than Kerry voters in response to pollsters.

    The authors of this scientific study of the National Election Data Archive Project, consider that scenario highly unlikely, based on extensive analysis of the election data presented in their report “Final Study of the 2004 Presidential Election Poll Discrepancies”. They conclude, /“The required pattern of exit poll participation by Kerry and Bush voters to satisfy the exit poll data defies empirical experience and common sense under any assumed scenario.”/

    An executive summary of the report by Josh Mitteldorf of Temple University has been released today and is available at: http://electionarchive.org/ucvAnalysis/US/Exit_Polls_summary.pdf. The full 25 page scientific report will be released tomorrow. This group's preliminary study on the exit poll discrepancies was not refuted by any PhD statistician in America, and we expect our final study to be similarly received in the academic community.

    Amidst the data, many extremely unlikely anomalies exist, invariably in President Bush’s favor. For one, a state-by-state analysis of the discrepancy between exit polls and official election results shows highly improbable skewing of the election results biased towards the president.

    We have had election fraud in this country before. November's wildly inaccurate presidential exit polls should warrant concern of the highest order by every American citizen.

    The report acknowledges that the possibility of fraud in our vote counting system is the most serious issue any democracy can face. If there is any chance that vote counts have been electronically manipulated, it is imperative that the people of the United States know the truth.

    The report concludes, “/We believe that the absence of any statistically-plausible explanation for the discrepancy between Edison/Mitofsky’s exit poll data and the official presidential vote tally is an unanswered question of vital national importance that needs thorough investigation./”

    US Count Votes is seeking financial support for its "National Election Data Archive" project in order to collect detailed election data and, prior to November 2006, to develop statistical methods to audit elections results data and provide statistical evidence of vote tabulation errors immediately following any US election.

    *Contributors and Supporters of the Report include:*
    *Josh Mitteldorf*, PhD - Temple University Statistics Department
    *Steven F. Freeman*, PhD - Center for Organizational Dynamics, University of Pennsylvania
    *Brian Joiner*, PhD - Prof. of Statistics (ret) University of Wisconsin
    *Frank Stenger*, PhD - Professor, School of Computing, University of Utah
    *Richard G. Sheehan*, PhD -Professor, Department of Finance, University of Notre Dame
    *Paul F. Velleman*, PhD - Associate Prof., Department of Statistical Sciences, Cornell University
    *Victoria Lovegren*, PhD - Department of Mathematics, Case Western Reserve University
    *Campbell** B. Read*, PhD - Prof. Emeritus, Department of Statistical Science, Southern Methodist University
    *Jonathan Simon*, J.D., National Ballot Integrity Project
    *Ron Paul Baiman, *PhD* *– Institute of Government and Public Affairs, University of Illinois at Chicago
    *About US Count Votes*

    US Count Votes is a Utah non-profit corporation. It is the sponsor of the National Election Data Archive project and of research to scientifically analyze the accuracy of vote counting in the United States. Its goal is to provide nationwide, impartial statistical auditing services to help ensure the accuracy of future elections.

    For further information visit www.electionarchive.org.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [1] <#_ftnref1> "Evaluation of Edison/Mitofsky Election System 2004" prepared by Edison Media Research and Mitofsky International for the National Election Pool (NEP) Jan. 19, 2005

    [2] <#_ftnref2> In the November 21 runoff, Ukraine's official vote count had Prime Minister Yanukovych the winner by 2.7%. Two exit polls showed him losing by 8% and 2%, respectively. Thus, the discrepancy was between 10.7% and 4.7%. In the US, the discrepancy was between 6.5% and 5.5%. See http://www.templetonthorp.com/ru/news808 and http://www.indybay.org/archives/archive_by_id.php?id=2669&category_id=44.

    [3] <#_ftnref3> www.acm.org/usacm/weblog/index.php?p=73

    [4] <#_ftnref4> http://uscountvotes.net/voting_machines/Best_Practices_US.pdf
     
  2. langal

    langal Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2004
    Messages:
    3,824
    Likes Received:
    91
    I heard somewhere (can't remember where) that the late-afternoon exit polling data was excluded due to some sort of malfunction with the central server. The late-afternoon votes have historically skewed more towards the Republicans.

    Maybe someone here knows more and can shed light on this.

    Don't bash me. Just asking a question..:)
     
  3. PhiSlammaJamma

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 1999
    Messages:
    28,763
    Likes Received:
    7,050
    Is this where we look to religion instead of science to explain the results. ;)
     
  4. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2002
    Messages:
    26,925
    Likes Received:
    2,265
    You lost. Get over it, liberal professors.

    That source is not credible in the least. Here is another headline on the freepress.org site:

    "If Jesus returns, Karl Rove will kill him" :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
  5. MR. MEOWGI

    MR. MEOWGI Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Messages:
    14,382
    Likes Received:
    11
    bigtexxx hates me.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    48,921
    Likes Received:
    17,520
    What does their political leaning have to do with the data? How do you know their political leaning? Are you assuming that just because they are professors they are liberal?

    What data would be necessary for you to even consider that a mistake had been made? Is there any, or are you closed off to the idea all together?
     
  7. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2002
    Messages:
    26,925
    Likes Received:
    2,265
    I am certain that they are liberal due to the source that No Worries tried to pass off onto us: www.freepress.org. Here is the description that freepress.org provides about itself: Progressive news and commentary from the web and print journal

    In case you haven't heard, "Progressive" is the liberals' new euphemism of choice to describe themselves.
     
  8. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    48,921
    Likes Received:
    17,520
    First of all it isn't a euphamism, since liberal doesn't require one. It is a synonym.

    Anyway that is where the information is from but not who conducted the tests.
     
  9. francis 4 prez

    francis 4 prez Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2001
    Messages:
    22,025
    Likes Received:
    4,552
    scientific analysis also says y'all should MoveOn!!


    i don't know enough about them to know but sentences such as these give me pause for concern:


    the language is a little too descriptive and emotive for an impartial source.
     
  10. langal

    langal Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2004
    Messages:
    3,824
    Likes Received:
    91
    Didn't they pollsters admit that the their samples were predominantly female?

    Wasn't this the polling company's own explanation for the discrepancies?

    I also recall something about trouble with the late-afternoon polling and how a lot of those results were tossed.

    Maybe someone more well-versed in these matters can say something..
     
  11. Uprising

    Uprising Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2000
    Messages:
    42,284
    Likes Received:
    5,475
    :D

    MoveOn.org....get over it!
     
  12. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2002
    Messages:
    14,284
    Likes Received:
    5,246
  13. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1999
    Messages:
    30,147
    Likes Received:
    17,078
    Alas, the predictable conservative response. If the shoe were on the other foot, FNS would 24x7 decrying the election.

    Personally, I don't think that the 2004 election had wide scale fraud. The above numerical analysis does give me pause. The appearance of fraud should be investigated to determine if there is something that went wong that can be fixed.
     
  14. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 1999
    Messages:
    23,968
    Likes Received:
    14,042
    "Two alternatives remain. Either something was wrong with the exit polling, or something was wrong with the vote count."

    I can understand this. A very scientific sentence.

    "For one, a state-by-state analysis of the discrepancy between exit polls and official election results shows highly improbable skewing of the election results biased towards the president."

    Not a very scientific sentence. This shows a very liberal bias. All data can show is the two data sets are most likely not the same. Stating one is skewed implies it is incorrect when the data does not support which one is correct. The rest is speculative.


    Looking at the paper, it seems racial profiling was used in selecting voters which seems very nonprogressive. I do not trust the samplers for exit poll data. I do not trust Bush either even though I am a conservative (I am not a Bush voter).

    So where does this leave us, democrats still think Bush cheated. Bush supporters still think that democrats are whiners. I, on the other hand, hope I have someone I can feel confident in voting for next time ....ugh...I had to vote Cobb.

    I expect multiple exit polling next presidential election.
     
  15. nyquil82

    nyquil82 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2002
    Messages:
    5,174
    Likes Received:
    3
    I always knew bigtexxx hated Jesus.
     
  16. Doctor Robert

    Doctor Robert Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 1999
    Messages:
    3,298
    Likes Received:
    839
    No Worries, please stop feeding the animals.
     
  17. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1999
    Messages:
    30,147
    Likes Received:
    17,078
    but they are so cute when they go into their feeding frenzy.
     
  18. RocketMan Tex

    RocketMan Tex Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 1999
    Messages:
    18,452
    Likes Received:
    116
    Exit polling should be outlawed.
     
  19. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    48,921
    Likes Received:
    17,520
    I am not sold that Bush won by fraud by any means. I'm mostly arguing in the devil's advocate role, but I am concerened. It's not so much about this election but elections in the future or a series of elections. I do believe that we should have had a printout of the votes so there could be a paper trail in case of error or fraud.

    As far as the numbers being skewed to favor Bush, it may not be as unscientific as it sounds. If you look at precincts where the number heavily favored registered Democrats, and other votes from those precincts followed Democratic voting trends in every other issue and race on the ballot, but the presidential race heavily favored Bush despite Gore winning big in those precincts in the previous election, then those results might show an improbably skewing heavily favoring Bush. I know there are a number of instances where the situation I described above did happen.
     
  20. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    48,921
    Likes Received:
    17,520
    I'm not sure what about those sentences are impartial. I would think that fraudulent activity of a national election while we have troops in active combat is of vital national interest. I would also say that inaccuracies in either polling or voting in a national interest would also warrant concern of the highest order.

    I would say the same if the results favored Kerry and there was reason to suspect inaccuracies.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now