Purpose of Debate & Discussion?

D&D didn't used to be this bad.

Real D&D is great; we have so many documents and ledgers written in stone that are just vague. As Plato says in his Letter VII, the act of dialect is one in which humans flourish, where we can give animation to our written words and statues. The D&D is about making ideas and events come alive. I for one have learned a lot from this place. It's good.

 

You're just too stupid to realize how much smarter we are than the D&D of the past. Go home you pinko fascist.

 

I dunno. I think it used to be worse but maybe that's just me. I think the most mudslinging happens with topics that have been endlessly rehashed, and therefore posters get tired of reposting the same positions ad infinium. So keep those new topics coming!

 

Given that there are always at least two sides to every issue and that our political system is adversarial by nature conflict is going to arise. Also given that these are very important and passionate issues its only natural that we get heated again. I agree more substance and less name calling is going to be good and even though I proposed a D & D civility moratorium I would hate for people to start reigning in their passions just to try to get along.

I like Svpernaut's idea about trying to propose solutions but I don't feel that's something that's needed since for the most part we aren't legislators or others who can enact major changes.

The main things I think we would need to change around here are getting more substantive, addressing the issues rather than each other, and getting less personal. This is an internet forum and nothing here is at stake so there is no reason to go after someone personally or take offense personally from someone else.

Still I don't think Clutchfans is that bad in regard to internet issues forums. I've seen far worse on the NYT forums and others.

 

This is a good post. I don't think this is a problem solving forum, so I don't expect people to totally focus on that but I do think some changes for the better would be nice. I think honest debate would be a good place to start.

I think it is fine to say to someone no you wrong it didn't happen that way Here is what happened (insert article of evidence here). Then people are free to discuss the legitimacy of that evidence and post counter evidence.

But when people say if you believe x[/i[ you are a terrorist, you are a jerk, a racist, evil, Saddam lover, supporter of Bin Laden or whatever. That provokes angry personal responses that go away from the issues. Also not dealing with the issues in an effort to attack someone isn't helpful.

For instance let's pretend that the theory of relativity hadn't been discovered by einstein and tomorrow Osama Bin Laden came out and said E equals mc squared.

We all hate Osama but if he has evidence or a point that is valid like the theory of relativity then we could address the points presented rather than ignore anything that would go for honest debate and bring up what a bad guy obl is and attack someone for using obl as a source.

Most of the time if the sources are bad there is evidence to counteract what they are saying. It happens when people use Ann Coulter as a source all the time. We don't have to attack Ann Coulter because so much of what he writes is flawed. If someone wants to use Ann Coulter as a source then so be it. That source can be attacked by attacking their evidence. It just leads to better debate.

Those seem to be the best things I can think of to keep from bringing the level of debate down. Obvious things like being respectful, and asking for clarification rather than jumping to conclusions about what someone else is saying would also help.

 

I am not sure what it was like in D&D long time ago, since I have been here I do not believe it is that bad, check out Yahoo discussions if you do not believe me. With a few exceptions, most of the time posters have been fairly polite, even when T_J or Texxx are publishing republican talking points they are usually not rude (they do provide some comical statemens sometimes).

D&D have helped me to understand many different perspectives on various issue, many of which I have not thought about previously, so it is definately informative.

Everyone have their unique experience and background in how they perceive the world and various issues. When others discredit our beliefs we all feel threatened and often respond with attacks. On many issues there isn't one absolute correct answer that fits all situations, it is finding the right balance that is hard.

Take president Bush for example, Repulicans will see the things he have done correctly as their justification in supporting him while the Democrats will look at the things he have done wrong and attack him, neither side will be able to convince the other side by writing posts. However, if he does enough things you do not agree with, even some of his previous supports will not side with him as the his recent poll number indicate. There are examples on this forum of posters who have switched their view of the president just within the last year.

I feel D&D is the best place where I can gather information to make a informed decisions on many issues and it is a great place!

 

How can you tell your brother, 'Let me remove the speck of wood that is in your eye,' when you yourself don't see the log that is in your own eye?

 

i think people need to develope a thick skin.

just because i think your viewpoints are stupid doesn't mean i think you are stupid. and similarly im more than content with anyone thinking im a moron for spewing something they consider to be garbage.

its not personal. you can have discussions which might not even be so civil but still be civil on a personal level.

some of us are just very opinionated. and i think its a great thing. if we had apathy democracy wouldn't work.

 

So his looks don't persuade you to change your mind, FB?

In all seriousness, I agree with Svpernaut. It would be great if this forum could have more civil discussions. However, there seems to be more eloquent and passionate posters on the left side compared to the right side. I wish I could participate more in these discussions, but if I did, I would be talking out of my butt. Not to say that I don't do that on other things , but politics is one topic I would rather not do that in. And it doesn't help that three of the most highly visible right side posters are ones that are disdained by other conservative or moderate posters (not all the time but sometimes).

 

You are right. There are way more liberal posters or posters on the liberal side. I wish that were a lot more conservative posters here. I think it would help the quality of debate greatly.

For the record I don't hold anyone's political beliefs against them. I am more liberal than most of my friends, and some of my best friends are even more conservative than the conservatives on this board. In real life I almost never talk politics. Politics just shouldn't be personal in my opinion. I respect other opinions even if I passionately disagree with those opinions. I am ok if there are some topics that an agreement is never reached. I am more interested in just hearing and discussing different viewpoints.

If there is anyone here who feels that I have taken a personal dislike to them because I have held fast to my opinion praised others who bring up points that are in line with my own, and haven't complimented opinions different than mine, then I am sorry. I honestly never meant anything personal against anyone even if I grew frustrated with a lack of understanding or communication about a topic.

Basically I don't take anything in here personally, and I don't mean anything I say in here personally. I wish that we had more thoughtful conservative posters here because it makes for better discussion.

 

The insults come because we rehash the same arguments OVER and OVER again. On the 100th thread about the war, people just aren't going to put the same effort as the first one. When one side doesn't wish to address a legitimate point or argue in a basic logical fashion, then it's often very frustrating to posters. Also, different posters have different levels of respect for D&D. Some enjoy insulting and mocking instead of adding substance.

Another problem I see with D&D is the huge generalizations used when addressing liberals and conservatives. As if all liberals and conservatives believe the same ideas, and even if they did, as if all liberals and conservatives came to the same conclusions in the same way.

Even with all the flaws of D&D, it is still one of the best forums on the Net. Some of the posts are truly gems. Every once in a while, I read a post that makes me think, "I've never thought of it that way" and I'm sure others have the same reaction.

 

post away Manny.

Most of the more insightful posts have come from people who aren't political junkies. The geeks from the debate club aren't nearly as smart as they think they are .

And the left isn't necessarily more eloquent. They just pat eachother on the back more -- and attack in packs....(plus GWB and his cronies keep tossing such soft floaters over the plate).

If you're finding this place intimidating, you're taking it too seriously.

 

I agree about people being too thin skinned. I've been called names in this forum and I didn't lose any sleep about it. It's a basketball forum first and foremost. We're all Rocket fans and I'm able to look past political disagreements when I hang (or in this case, talk over the internet) with my Rocket friends.

Maybe I'm part of the "problem" because I actually like reading some the name calling. I usually don't participate but it's good for comic relief and helps me get through an otherwise long and boring work day. I actually miss some of the Trader_Jorge vs. SamFisher google-image showdowns. Especially when Sam starting incorporating sound effects. Very entertaining. Hey, I'm just being honest.

The only thing that bugs me are the people who carry their D&D feuds into other forums. RMTex is a guy that I couldn't disagree with more politically but, since we're both beer drinking musicians and Rocket fans, I imagine that we would probably get along great in real life. We probably wouldn't even talk politics.

One other thing that bugs me are the people who post in the D&D only. This is a basketball forum. There are some D&D posters that never post in the GARM at all. I don't really understand that.

 

The D&D, in all honesty, is like the play room for the kids who eat paste. It's generally safe and, with the exception of the occassional fire set by little Jimmy the pyro, there is not much need for supervision.

The only reason it was created was to get the crazy talk out of the Hangout. Believe me, there were plenty of discussions about flushing ALL discussions of politics, religion, etc. right down the ol' ****ter.

But, with any community, you have to face the fact that people will disagree and some issues will create controversy. I seriously doubt most of those who are in here would say half the things we say to another person in the face which makes this place more contentious than say, a local bar.

In fact, if some of the things said in here were said in real life, I venture that there would be quite a few people explaining to police that the reason he smacked the guy over the head with the barstool was because he called Bush a "drunken liar" or the words "tree hugger" came up one too many times in conversation. In reality, no one here is nearly that brave or stupid, so, in some ways, D&D is like therapy for people with way too much time on their hands and enough sense to avoid the inevitable drive-by that would likely result after a real-life conversation containing similar rants.

Of course, you could also cite the times when Clutch, myself or one of the other moderators had our lives threatened for banning someone for being a jackass in D&D. Seriously, death threats for a BBS banning. Talk about thin skin. And that doesn't even count the profanity-laced tirades via email after a well-deserved banning.

Personally, I rarely stroll in here, but there have been so many reported posts over the past few days, I figured it was worth a look. If it weren't for the fact that none of the mods really spend much time in here to see some of the juvenille behavior, this forum would no doubt be long gone.

So, count your blessings that the mods usually leave romper room to itself. My guess is that if it were more closely monitored, there'd be a lot more bannings and a lot less discussion.

 

I feel funny being compared to a kid who eats paste, but as long as the forum stays, that's fine with me. Personally, I prefer monkeys flinging poo.

Flinging poo and being civil, in my opinion, are not mutually exclusive. As long as a few guidelines are followed, and everyone makes an honest effort to follow them, there's no reason we can't raise a certain degree of hell. (personal attacks, racism, attacks against an entire religion, instead of an extreme example of it, and the like, being obvious examples of what we should all try to avoid)

We wouldn't want things to get boring. Lovefests can be that way. Trust me, I've experienced some real ones. They can get boring pretty quickly, unless a lot of members of the opposite sex are present. Clearly, the sexual component is not an option here.

Guess we'll have to make do! Hayes, I agree with you... I think it used to be a lot worse. More members are posting here, which is great. We should work harder to keep them here, instead of pissing them off so badly that they complain and then leave. That's not very smart. With some effort, there's no reason we can't...

Keep D&D Civil.

 

I'm in this class. I stopped posting when I was out of the country for awhile. I never got to see any games so had little to contribute in analysis on the games. I still read a lot there but hardly ever post. This year's the first in awhile I'll be able to see more games.