After reading a bunch of these threads and seeing the arguements for and against prayer in school, I really felt like I should say something(If for nothing else, then to just get it off my chest). To me it seems like there are two major argumuents concerning prayer in school. The first is usually made by Christians or other religious folk. They want prayer in school and make a pretty big deal about how atheists and the like are trying to get prayer out of school. They feel attacked and feel the need to fight back a lot of times. Fighting to keep prayer is schools. They say things like, "The Ten Commandments are in the courtroom" or they have bumper stickers that say "As long as there are tests, there will be prayer in the classroom." The second arguement is usually from those who try to make Christians see why the prayer in school thing is such a big deal. Why it violates their freedom to be forced to pray in a way that is different than theirs. They bring up freedom of speech, and talk about how Christians are bull-headed and uncompromising. While I may not have done a good job encompasing both arguments fully, I hope you get the idea of the two sides that I think make the majority. Now let me get on to my thoughts. First of all, the thing that bothers me about the Christian who gets angry when people try to "take prayer out of schools," is that they are not realising that no one can take prayer completely out of schools. What the law is trying to say is that as a teacher or principle or some school official, you cannot lead a prayer at school, during class, or assemblies or thing like that. Christians would be pretty offended if a buddhist teacher led a prayer in class to Buddha. They are not trying to say that you cannot at any time pray. If you pray for your lunch or before a test or whatever, you are not doing anything wrong. The problem comes when someone in a position of authority makes a student feel like he or she has to pray a certain way. The thing that bothers me about the second argument, is that people think Christians are trying to force everyone to think and pray just like them because they fight for prayer in school. But this goes back to my last few paragraphs. Christians aren't trying to force people to pray like them, they just want the ability to pray and think it is being taken away from them. In all honesty, I think it is just a big misunderstanding. Christians feel like they are being attacked, when their not. Others feel like Christians are trying to force something on them, but their not. Conclusion: Christians....just relax. No one is trying to take away your freedom to pray to God. They are trying to preserve it. And to the others who think Christians are force feeding them something....Please don't take it that way. They are a little defensive and confused about what is and isn't being taken away from them. I hope I made sense, wasn't stupid, and possibly shed some light. Thanks
i don't believe it's going to get "hairy." well-reasoned post. he seeks to understand what's truly at the heart of the issue for both sides. that is the way every debate should be approached, here or elsewhere. if more people approached contentious issues this way, the world would be a far better place. people become upset with a sense of loss. even if it's not real loss but merely perceived. it's why people have a hard time with change. no one has a hard time with change when something good happens...people have a hard time with change when there's loss. or when they believe there is loss. as for prayers in public school....my 5 year old carries a little cross in his pocket to kindgergarten. i didn't ask him to. he did it on his own. about the 3rd day of school he dealt with separation anxiety...nervousness about whether or not we'd be there to pick him up...what if he gets lost? what if someone takes him? those sorts of things that a child deals with when encountering "independence" for the first time. he told me that he prays to God to keep him safe. and he reaches in his pocket to remember that his little cross is there. the cross says "God loves you on it." wow. no one can take that from him. and we're fortunate enough to live in a country where he can pray without being reprimanded or anything...as long as he's not a distraction to others (which Christ says he shouldn't be, anyway). he's free to do just as he's doing...and i'm immensely grateful for that, because i know in other countries he would not be allowed to do even that. having said all that...i do not want public school teachers leading prayers for my son. i will teach my son to pray. i will teach him about God. i'll take him to our church. i'll encourage him to read about all faith traditions, and visit mosques, temples and different churches as he grows older. my wife worked as a public school teacher for a while to put me through law school...i saw enough from her co-workers, many of whom were wonderful people, to know that i don't want public schools leading prayer.
No, the discussion won't get "hairy" with reasoned and thoughtful individuals like yourself and Idrockfan contributing their opinions. Great paragraph Max--spot on. As I have said before, I feel so much better about Christianity in general and the Evangelical movement when I read your words.
So you guys agree that officially sanctioned prayer in schools is wrong. Good. There's no problem here. Now if only those other Christians would let up about the issue, everything would be ok.
Agree with Max (as usual) This is one of those 'lightning rod' topics that, to me anyway, seems very simple. I just don't get all the "controversy" usually associated with it. If kids want to pray in school without bothering anyone else, they should be allowed to. If kids don't want to pray in school, they shouldn't be made to. That's it. But, as usual, it's the extremists on both sides that are making things complicated. The extremists on the 'right' want prayer added to the daily curriculum. The extremists on the 'left' don't even want schools to mention the word Christmas. And as usual the answer is somewhere in the middle.
I think prayer in school would be scary and confusing for my little atheists. How am I supposed to teach them to be rational thinkers in the midst of irrational behaviour? Will they be ostricized by the evangelical children? Will their Christian teachers use their position of authority to teach my children religion? I don't really have kids but I have a an atheist friend who does and he just lets his kids have that general 'Jesus/God don't go to church' religion because he knows how hard it would be on them if they went to school and said "Well my Daddy says there isn't such thin as God" It be worse than that kid that gave everybody head lice. And really it's a harder concept to grasp than the fairy tales kids are used to. (sorry; I seem to be ragging on every one today. Religion is more fun than no religion... enjoy!)
I don't see why. Like what idrockfan said, most Christians got pissed off because they misunderstood the rules. Prayers are still allowed in school, the government only banned organized prayers in school. How would you feel if you are Jewish and the school has a mandatory prayer every morning?
Agree with Max and rhester... I believe that it would be a clear case of government endorsing religion if tax-funded schools required teachers to lead their students in prayer every day. It's really a simple case and I, too, am surprised as to what the whole 'debate/disagreement' is about. Seems to me as a pretty straigtforward issue: you either support the concept of a 'seperation of State/Church' or you don't. If Government allows public schools to hold group prayers encouraged/endorses by salaried employees, then there is no doubt that the government is endorsing religion (regardless of which one). Moreover, there ARE alternatives available to those who want their kids brought up in a religious atmosphere, they are called private schools (their kids can get a better overall education there, not just in religious courses).
Honestly, why don't we just do this, allow the kids that don't want to pray in school to come 15 min late?
the issue is . . .various groups would Outlaw your childs cross. . . they would liken it to having a shirt that says f*ck on it. . . Say that it violates their child to have to see it I'm not big on prayer in school . . .but I beleive a moment of silence is not too much to ask ' Rocket River
So where do you stand on the Pledge of Alligience [sp?] There are those that want that to be stopped in schoold because of the 'under God' part of it Rocket River
Tough one, but I think the same rule would apply: government shouldn't endorse any religious view (in this case a general mention of 'God', which athiests don't believe in). The reason why I say this is that the law must be consistent, you can't make exceptions. At the same time, the school/government/whomever can't forbid people from invoking the name of God if they want to, or otherwise it would be considered 'reverse-discrimination', which is just as wrong.
