if you were a condom, you're at least considering it. you have to consider it....it just may not be the desired result. but that's like saying, i touched the hot stove, but i didn't want to get burned. well, no kidding.
davidwu, I thought I should reply to your comment, being mentioned and all. I guess you haven't read the "abortion" threads here. if you had, you would have realized that I'm one of the people MadMax argues with. I'm very much in favor of choice. Maybe that's where you're confused. If a government is sanctioning forcing women to have late term abortions, then, in my opinion, that government doesn't deserve to exist. If a government is starving children deliberately, then I would feel the same way. It has nothing to do with the Chinese people, the vast majority of whom are just ordinary people, like most of us here. Just to draw another distinction... the invasion of Iraq, which I opposed, was against a brutal dictator who murdered his own people. I didn't oppose the invasion because I thought Saddam should remain in power. I opposed it for different reasons. We also didn't have good relations with his government, and Iraq wasn't one of our largest trading partners... far from it. It's pretty simple. If the Chinese government were doing the things alleged, and I really hope they were not, then that government should be punished for it, not rewarded with billions of dollars in trade, no matter how it might benefit the United States. If the Chinese government had nothing to do with this alleged policy, then I hope those doing the things alleged were punished by them. If the actions alleged never happened, then I'm wasting my time discussing it. Does that help? A lot of people in this country care about choice. We may not all agree on just what those choices should be, but it's part of our culture and our traditions. Choice. Another word for it might be democracy. Keep D&D Civil!!
Well I may have been a condom in my last life but I'll have to check with Meowgi on that. Sorry couldn't resist. I'm more worried about STD's. The last long term relationship I was in we did have sex a few times without a condom because we both had had been cleared of STD's and only did so when she wasn't ovulating. As I said humans are one of the few animals that will have sex without considering procreation since we have it outside of times of optimum fertility and even after women have passed menopause.
PO TEN TIAL LY yes but we are no where near the earth's capacity Honestly. . . . .If we got near it .. . i think maybe the Golf courses and other crap like that should go before PEOPLE go America and Americans waste so much food and resources it is ridiculous. . . .. Before we goto the PURGING of people or STRICT population policies. . . why not just make things more efficient/more recycle friendly. Rocket River It is cheaper to stifle freedoms and perhaps even kill babies . .than to simply have folx turn off the lights when they not home. . . to recycle paper, metals, etc . .. . Carpool . .. etc
You could have said that you were for breaking ties with any government that has forced abortions, which China has had. It could save everyone a lot of time. Abortion, forced abortion, late abortion, forced late abortion.
Maybe if US opens the border, we can sustain a lot more people? If you are against population control, you should be for this policy.
It's only "potential" if you don't reach it. The fact that it is there is indisputable. And professor, tell me what the carrying capacity is? Some people specualte that it could be 15 billion, of course that would require a lot of people to have Kinshasa like living standards... and it might be a lot lower. Why should we test it? Pave over that golf course, let's build a dense urban slum so that we can have more babies? I don't think that's a plausible course of action. Why is the choice conservation or purging people? Of course conservation is a good idea. Having less babies, particularly in overburdened areas, is a good idea too. Turn out the lights or kill a baby? Well, turning out the lights requires you to get up.
I only started reading here recently so I appreciate the background 101. Hey, I am pro choice too. As I said earlier, we are not on two altitudes, but just different postions on the same line. I don't get this one. I didn't mention Iraq war and don't see how is it relevant here. Was I implying that you would have supported the invasion of China if it was to eliminate the alleged forced late term abortion and child abuse? Anyway, really confused on this one. Totally understood and respected. What I didn't know, probably still don't know is, where is the privilege of doubt in this? Even after I tried to throw in my personal experiences in the context, it doesn't seem to ease your pain in thinking all those children starved to death. Choice, democracy, freedom, I like them too, just as you. But like you mentioned, we may not all agree on what these choices should be, they all could vary a lot depending place, time and other contexts. I know China has a lot of problems and I am sure given a period of time of peaceful development, it's going to get better just like it's changing right now. To make it happen, you have to take it step by step as there are full of confrontation and compromise from different groups of ppl, conservatives, poor farmers, middle classes. What doesn't help is the expectation to get it done overnight, and sometimes misconceptions too, like what I have tried to explain on the orphanage matter. I am off topic too much. Back to the population control, world wide or in China. Well, I am all for control if the natural growth rate is beyond sustainable development. If there were no birth control for the last twenty years in China, you would have lost more jobs to cheaper labor in China and more illegal immigrants in California. Then once you agree with birth control policy, do you force it or not? If you cannot force it in late terms due to humanity reason, then the policy would be a piece of paper. You can use fines, or deprive birth certificates (these two are common in China as I see. Most of my cousins in countryside paid fines to have two children) but it is not an ultimate solution either. Well, not trying to justify something, just trying to describe the complicacy beneath it.
A nice reply. Thanks. I threw the Iraq analogy in just because it popped into my head. Actually, I thought HayesStreet would come in here and bust my chops for it. I guess it was to illustrate my reasoning regarding the alleged abuses in China. As you understood, I wasn't advocating invading China... heck, we have our hands full in Iraq! (that was a bad joke!) What I was trying to say was that we (the US) shouldn't reward bad behavior (if this stuff were true regarding China). This President went to the extreme of invading Iraq, for reasons which have changed as the conflict has dragged on, and yet, if this stuff were true, we've been improving relations with China, which does not compute. (again, if these allegations were true) Hoped that helped. edit: I meant to reply to your other comment. Like I said, I'm for choice. I disagree that it is an "all or nothing" scenario. If a woman is that far along, I can't imagine a government requiring a late term abortion. It's just inhuman, in my opinion. I know China is trying to control it's population, but that kind of reasoning is beyond me. Is the government "afraid" that women will hide until they're are so far along, a late term abortion would be the only method left? If true, that says volumes about the Chinese government, and it isn't civilized. Keep&D civil!!
I'm not sure why anyone would argue that a rational thinking civilization shouldn't take proactive steps to prevent their population form reaching the point of maximum sustainablilty. #1 What happens when you reach that point? Something drastic, either disaster or resorting to Soylent Green. #2 you be constantly battling the law of diminishing returns in your pursuit of clean water, clean air, renewable energy, arable land, productive ocens.and pollution so that the standard of living would be harder to maintain and even in the rosiest of scenario's probably would decline. What's the logic for uncontroled growth? If you have twice as many people your twice as likely to produce another Einstein? Maybe, but you will need them to advance science enough to maximize the production of goods and services. Aren't there enough tatto parlors and nail salons already? More is rarely better, it's just more.
Precisely, it's idiotic to think that it's somehow a good idea, from either a utilitarian, religious, economic, whatever, perspective to shoot the population upward until we head past the carrying capacity and then sit back contendly until the mass die-off which would inevitably occur as a result of War, famine, natural disasters, etc and say: wow! glad we figured that out, thanks extra few billion people who just got killed for helping us figure out how much was too much! Now give us the pump, the tanker & all your gasoline!"
Forced abortion seldom happens in big cities or to government employees. They are either more educated to self-control willingly, or they have too much to lose (job, the no 1 reason), or have deeper pockets to dig, or they simply out-smart their peers. For example, I have personally heard people sent his wife to relatives and brought back a baby months later claiming it's adopted. So you bet, people will find ways to hide if no consequences after certain months of secrete life, especially like my hometowner who had little to lose anyway. So, as I have said, forced abortion consists of a small part of all cases in China. Does this make China more civlized, And sadly, which I feel uncomfortable too, poor farmers are treated less civilized, due to the strictness of the policy, the incompetence of local governments and their own stubbornness (a better word to use here?). But hei, this kind of unfairness never ceased to exist right? Even here rich people can afford better lawyers to get evidence more scrutinized, if not total acquitted. Sigh, sometimes words are not enough for an accurate description. It always leaves too much to imagine. Not long ago, my wife met a girl (in USA, from east Europe) who told her a story that one of a Chinese mom's twin boys had to be taken away due to one child policy. So do you think it is believable? I guess a lot will say yes, but you know, it's unheard of for my twenty something years in China.
Thanks again. I enjoy reading your posts. (post more!) This points out to me, again, just how different our cultures are, as are the cultures of other countries in the region. I've traveled widely, due to my good fortune, and seen first hand the differences, but it's good to be reminded by someone of intelligence who lives there. A huge difference is how amazing it is that China can have this kind of policy, and not have more protests than those we've heard about, and I'm sure there are many we don't hear about at all. I can say, without reservation, that if such a policy were attempted by a government here, it would be voted out of office by a margin not seen in this country before. And if that government were to seize power in such a way, as unlikely as it is here, that it couldn't be voted out, then there would be an explosion of violence. We're just different, and millions have weapons at home, for hunting or personal protection, who would use them in outrage. Our volunteer military wouldn't stand for a takeover as well. I can't imagine such a policy being seriously considered here, and I would think that China is filled with people who find it hard to believe it's happening to them. Of course, we aren't in China's situation. This is coming from someone who believes in birth control... but birth control by choice. It's astonishing that China can "keep the lid on," as an American might put it. Keep D&D Civil!!
This isn't really a secret so I'm suprised this is the first you've heard about it. Its been brought up in Congress in every MFN discussion in the last 20+ years (although as I indicated earlier, the whole one child policy in the PRC has become more lax in the last few years I believe).
This is where we differ, your "birth control by choice" is simply human rights for us. We don't need (silent) endorsements from the Pope to wear a condom. To "control", in some sense, is "to draft". It's your duty to do that. Be assured, I am not a violent person and against abuse of birth control policy. But put in a bigger picture, I agree with the policy and understand it has to be forced someway which means you have to shoulder consequences if you choose not to fulfill your duty. It is cruel to some extent, but on paper, it treats every Chinese equally, either the national leaders who started the policy or a poor couple in countryside. Even I have a problem with it, it would be much less than the fact that, as I said before, poor people are treated less civilized than the rich in cities in reality. Put it this way, if China turns democratic overnight now, birth control policy would be the selling point after a lot of other issues, like corruption problem, social welfare, the rising Jini index, crime rates, Taiwan, and more. So basically, you can let go of those haunting pictures as it is hardly in normal Chinese’s mind as much as in yours.
Hmm, guess your not reading the life after death thread but for what it's worth I did make a conscious deciscion not to procreate so I'm walkng the walk too.
