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Penn State coach, AD, VP charged in child rape case

Discussion in 'Football: NFL, College, High School' started by Carl Herrera, Nov 5, 2011.

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javal_lon Member

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Major said: ↑

I think there are different levels of this, though. If you see someone at the office stealing something, fine - people ignore it. They don't want to get involved, and they don't see the downside as that big a deal. Sexual harassment? People will let that go thinking the victim is only being "emotionally" harmed and can do something about if they want. Fine. Injury or rape or murder when there are (or you think there are) lots of witnesses? People might think someone else will do something, so it lets them stay out of it. Stopping a murder in progress? There's a natural aversion to putting your own life in danger, so there might be a reason to not intervene (though calling the cops would be a simple option).

But there's got to be some breaking point in each person where not wanting to get involved is superceded by the need to act. If a person has ANY breaking point, you'd think this case would be it. You have rape, you have a defenseless kid, and you have no other witnesses - you're the only person that can stop this. I can even understand not wanting to try to jump in if the person thinks their own safety is put at risk, and instead calling the cops or yelling for help or even yelling at him to stop. But there's no way I can understand how "tell dad about it the next day" is the end result of any reasonable person in this scenario.
Click to expand...

Repped x10

#521 javal_lon, Nov 14, 2011

rrj_gamz Contributing Member

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Commodore said: ↑

I can understand shell shock from the former QB seeing that, and there are all sorts of experiments where authority figures can get people to do terrible things.

But he called his father, who should be under no such spell. He should have told his son to get his ass in there and stop it (he's a former QB against an old man FFS), use a bat if that's what it takes. Or call the police immediately at the very least. Absolutely no excuse.
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I can Agree to a certain extent but ultimately, he or his dad have to do something...

rocketsjudoka said: ↑

I am listening to a discussion on MPR about this very thing. As one of the commentators noted is that ethics decisions are easy only on paper and if there wasn't a context and consequences to them then there never would be such a thing as an ethical dilemma.

In this case it is easy to say in the abstract that you would act, particularly to say you would beat the hell out of Sandusky there and then, but now consider if this was someone who you were trained to look up to, someone you had worked with for years and maybe even someone you considered a friend.

As things like the Stanford Prisoner experiment show how strong a role of the power of authority can play in allowing and creating abuse.

Just to add I am not saying this to defend McQueary or anyone else at Penn State, clearly there was an ethical and moral failing, but to point out why he and others didn't act they way we presume moral people should.
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I can see this happening as well, doesn't make it right, but still, his dad wasn't in this and I hate to see how far the cover up went...that's sad to me and if its the only game in town, sounds like you just went along with it...truly sad...

#522 rrj_gamz, Nov 14, 2011
ubigred Contributing Member

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Major said: ↑

I think there are different levels of this, though. If you see someone at the office stealing something, fine - people ignore it. They don't want to get involved, and they don't see the downside as that big a deal. Sexual harassment? People will let that go thinking the victim is only being "emotionally" harmed and can do something about if they want. Fine. Injury or rape or murder when there are (or you think there are) lots of witnesses? People might think someone else will do something, so it lets them stay out of it. Stopping a murder in progress? There's a natural aversion to putting your own life in danger, so there might be a reason to not intervene (though calling the cops would be a simple option).

But there's got to be some breaking point in each person where not wanting to get involved is superceded by the need to act. If a person has ANY breaking point, you'd think this case would be it. You have rape, you have a defenseless kid, and you have no other witnesses - you're the only person that can stop this. I can even understand not wanting to try to jump in if the person thinks their own safety is put at risk, and instead calling the cops or yelling for help or even yelling at him to stop. But there's no way I can understand how "tell dad about it the next day" is the end result of any reasonable person in this scenario.
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BOLD.

People need to really sit back read the bold text. McPussy was 28 YEARS OLD.

Read the bold text.

10yr old boy being butt fu**ed by a 60 yr old man.

Read the bold text.

No excuses.

#523 ubigred, Nov 14, 2011
DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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ubigred said: ↑

BOLD.

People need to really sit back read the bold text. McPussy was 28 YEARS OLD.

Read the bold text.

10yr old boy being butt fu**ed by a 60 yr old man.

Read the bold text.

No excuses.
Click to expand...

Agreed, no excuses for JoePa to not immediately tell him to go to the police too, or the administrators to do the same.

Total system failure.

Rico lawsuits here we go !

DD

#524 DaDakota, Nov 14, 2011
tallanvor Contributing Member

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Very hard to watch

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#525 tallanvor, Nov 14, 2011
B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"

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ubigred said: ↑

BOLD.

People need to really sit back read the bold text. McPussy was 28 YEARS OLD.

Read the bold text.

10yr old boy being butt fu**ed by a 60 yr old man.

Read the bold text.

No excuses.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone is making excuses, so there are two conversations not meeting up (which is not unusual and is not a problem.)

1. I think some people are trying to explain typical (and awful) human behavior while acknowledging that typing what you would do is a distinct act from actually being in a situation and doing it.

2. Then some of us (like you maybe) are focused on the basic ethics of what is right and wrong. In this case, those witnesses are slimeball weak people, with no excuses for their lame asses, and I'd say everyone agrees on that.

If we want to say McCreepy is a one in a million weak-willed person and that all of us would do better, then it's easy to wash our hands of it and say how awful it is.

If you really want to build a culture where it's more difficult for such a horrific thing to happen, you have to consider the possibility that McCreepy is actually not so unusual, as human beings go. That maybe a lot of us are better than that, but a lot of people aren't. How do you make it easier for a weak person to do the right thing? If you can answer that difficult question, you could save some kid or kids a horrible trauma.

Cheers.

#526 B-Bob, Nov 14, 2011

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B-Bob said: ↑

I don't think anyone is making excuses, so there are two conversations not meeting up (which is not unusual and is not a problem.)

1. I think some people are trying to explain typical (and awful) human behavior while acknowledging that typing what you would do is a distinct act from actually being in a situation and doing it.

2. Then some of us (like you maybe) are focused on the basic ethics of what is right and wrong. In this case, those witnesses are slimeball weak people, with no excuses for their lame asses, and I'd say everyone agrees on that.

If we want to say McCreepy is a one in a million weak-willed person and that all of us would do better, then it's easy to wash our hands of it and say how awful it is.

If you really want to build a culture where it's more difficult for such a horrific thing to happen, you have to consider the possibility that McCreepy is actually not so unusual, as human beings go. That maybe a lot of us are better than that, but a lot of people aren't. How do you make it easier for a weak person to do the right thing? If you can answer that difficult question, you could save some kid or kids a horrible trauma.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

I can see that, but simply calling the police even if you didn't want to physically get involved isn't exactly a test of will. Waiting and calling your dad about it the next day speaks to something simpler: his position, the power and influence of the university and the people involved.

#527 Coach AI, Nov 14, 2011

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B-Bob said: ↑

If you really want to build a culture where it's more difficult for such a horrific thing to happen, you have to consider the possibility that McCreepy is actually not so unusual, as human beings go. That maybe a lot of us are better than that, but a lot of people aren't.
Click to expand...

I think there's something missing here too, though. Even if you assume McCreepy is one of those weakwilled people, what about all the other people that knew? What are the random odds that every single person that heard about this was equally weak a person - his dad, JoePa, the two other guys that were charged, any of the likely other people that got wind of this somewhere?

I think this speaks more to the specific culture of that environment and something truly f-ed up there than just an army of coincidentally weak-willed people.

#528 Major, Nov 14, 2011
rimrocker Contributing Member

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SIAP, but... W.T.F.?

Ex-Penn St. assistant not surprised

A former Penn State football graduate assistant coach and childhood abuse victim is not completely surprised by the allegations at the school.
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/45283472/ns/sports-college_football/

The voicemail was left by a buddy from his playing days back at Brown University.

“He made a reference to the Sandusky thing,” Matt Paknis says. “I didn’t know what he was talking about, but it sounded weird.”

The Sandusky thing. By now, America knows it all too well. The Sandusky thing is the indictment of former Penn State defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky on 40 counts of sexual abuse against eight children, an indictment that already has led to the ousters of university president Graham Spanier and legendary coach Joe Paterno, even though neither has been charged with a crime; to the indefinite leave imposed upon assistant coach and potential star witness Mike McQueary; and to unrest among students on the school's campus.

Sandusky has pleaded innocent to the charges. Paterno released a statement over the weekend, through his son Jay, that he would not have further comment on the situation.

When Paknis, 49, started investigating the Sandusky thing on the Internet, it hit especially close to home.

In two ways: He is a childhood victim of sexual abuse, and a former assistant coach at Penn State, working on the same staff as Sandusky under Paterno.

“I was up until 2 in the morning, getting more and more enraged,” says Paknis, a Massachusetts resident. “But, on the other hand, it made some sense to me.”

Paknis is a management and leadership consultant for high-end companies and enterprises, and his unique perspective has inspired him to speak out not only about sexual abuse but also about the abuse and misuse of power at the highest levels of the university and athletic program, which he blames for allowing an abuser to freely operate.

He has done so on a blog entitled “Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.”

“I’m just tired of all these little fiefdoms popping up everywhere, and people hiding in the back office, surrounded by all their henchmen, and doing the wrong things,” Paknis told NBCSports.com. “It’s got to stop. Someone has to step up. I can’t sit back. I’m doing this to help people.”

It should be made clear that Paknis did not witness any sexual abuse while at Penn State as a graduate assistant coach in 1987 and 1988, before leaving to pursue a master's degree in architecture at the University of Rhode Island. He did, however, see some things that made him queasy, especially in light of his own background, and especially when it came to Sandusky.

“He was always grabbing the players,” Paknis says. “He would get in their space, lean up right against them. I’d also been taught you don’t touch anyone unless you are teaching a technique. Boundaries were clearly an issue. It made me feel awkward, the way he would grab or pinch them.”

That wasn’t all that made him uncomfortable during his short Penn State tenure, which followed a successful playing career on a three-time undefeated state championship high school team before starting at Brown.

Paknis found it “bizarre” that Penn State coaches all showered in the same space, behind a clear Plexiglas perimeter.

“They would talk about plays," he said. "I thought that was maybe old-school or something, so I mentioned that to coaches at other places, and they never did that. That was not for me.”

Paknis also was unnerved by some of his interaction with Sandusky, even though none of it was sexual in nature. They didn’t spend much time together, but they coached different sides of the ball. Still, Paknis recalls that “he would repeatedly come close to me, and say that he hated Joe. He was never unpleasant to me, but I could not figure out where that was coming from, so I would back off. I didn’t want to get into it.”

That doesn’t mean Paknis was a fan of Paterno’s, either.

Penn State lockers were arranged alphabetically, so Paterno and Paknis were next to each other. In reality, however, they were worlds apart. Paterno had just won the national championship, and was the reigning "Sports Illustrated" Sportsman of the Year.

“I was youngest guy on the staff,” Paknis says. “I was the lowest man on the totem pole.”

At Penn State, he valued his classes, admired much of the staff, liked and respected many of the players.

Paknis didn’t think much of the Penn State power structure, or the man at the top, who “wouldn’t give you time of day unless you were on his level, or have any interaction with you without it serving him.” He saw a system that served as a “kingdom,” designed to serve a single person, without checks or balances. He saw a coach who had been able to produce a constructive output on the field, but “underneath, optimized fear.”

And he saw a community that bought so completely into the image that “he does things the right way,” that his way was rarely questioned.

“Joe is perceived to be a father figure or grandfather figure, and that’s a very hard thing for people to get to that realization, that your dad is bad,” Paknis says.

That’s why Paknis isn’t surprised that many former players have spoken out in sympathy toward Paterno since his firing last Wednesday, referencing all the good work he has done for the program and those who have gone through it: “Their whole image is locked into that. That is the way they define themselves. To let go of that, it’s very difficult.”

That’s also why Paknis isn’t surprised that many Penn State students have rallied to Paterno’s defense as well, even doing so with violence and vandalism:

“I think the students are confused," he says. "They had to act out. They were probably acting out in anger. I’d like to think I wouldn’t have acted that way, that I would have sat back and said, ‘Wow, if he’s getting removed, there’s got to be real substance here.’”

Paknis believes that Paterno followed “what was his MO for all those years,” and that “when it was time to step up and protect the kids, he protected himself.” He also believes that the truth is even worse than what has been reported.

“We know publicly now that he was aware of this when McQueary went to him,” Paknis says. That, according to the grand jury indictment, was 2002, after McQueary allegedly saw Sandusky raping a 10-year-old boy in a Penn State shower.

Paknis thinks Paterno knew something earlier even than 1999, when Sandusky resigned, one year after one boy — Victim 6 in the indictment — reported an incident to his mother, and it was investigated by university police and the district attorney.

That’s because Paknis came to this simple conclusion during his two years in Happy Valley, a conclusion that doesn’t change after Paterno aged well past the point of the average working person:

“Joe knows everything.”

Feeling personal pain
What Paterno can’t know is the pain that Paknis experienced as a child, the pain that makes these news events feel so personal.

“That’s what kept me up, because I got triggered,” Paknis says. “I figured I had most of my feelings had gone. But we all have a lot of compartments.”

He started cursing Sandusky, and anyone involved. He saw himself.

“He picked on kids who didn’t have a support structure,” Paknis says of Sandusky, who founded the Second Mile charity for at-risk kids only to allegedly prey upon them. “Kids who didn’t have the structure in place to make them feel whole and good.”

As a boy in Madison, N.J., Paknis experienced a family in crisis. His father was around, but not supportive. His mother was dying of cancer.

A male neighbor took advantage, grooming him, then sexually abusing him.

Paknis was 11. He said nothing, knowing that his family respected the neighbor, and believing he wouldn’t be believed. His struggles in school suggested something was wrong, however, so his mother sent him to counseling. Paknis felt comfortable with the counselor and eventually shared his secret.

He never shared it with his mother, who died before he graduated high school. The abuse allegation never got escalated to the legal authorities. His abuser never got exposed, so the loop never got closed, though Paknis was able to confront, threaten and stop him after growing to nearly 200 pounds as an eighth-grader.

“I don’t know what happened to him,” Paknis said. “I pray he did not go on to prey on other people. I’m pretty sure he had other issues. I don’t think he lasted too long.”

Paknis persevered. He pushed forward. He tried to put it behind him, with sports playing a role. But, after his mother passed, he started experiencing chronic sleep disruption. That went on for years until, finally, in 1996, after the birth of he and his wife’s second of three children, he decided he needed more help.

Paknis has been under professional care for the 15 years since. And he has come forward all the way, something he wasn’t ready to do in 1999, when he wrote a letter to his hometown newspaper in response to a Sports Illustrated story about sexual abuse in youth sports — in that letter, he shared the role of sports in “saving his life” without sharing the specific abuse history.

As a consequence of counseling, Paknis says he is a safe place now, a place where he feels free to talk.

Where he feels he can help, even if it requires public speaking.

That’s because he knows that others aren’t.

That’s one of the reasons Paknis is upset about the reaction of some at Penn State to this crisis, and their focus on Paterno as a victim rather than on the kids.

“It will not make it easier,” he says. “Not at all. If survivors are in there, they will just blame themselves more.”

He saves no sympathy for anyone but them.

Not for Sandusky.

Not for anyone in the Penn State power structure top to bottom, even if that means clearing out people Paknis liked, like Tom Bradley, who was promoted to head coach to replace Paterno.

“The first thing you’ve got to do is you’ve got to look at the situation honestly,” Paknis says. “Then you have to separate reality from distortions, or your opinions from facts. Someone has to go in there with a lot of credibility, and start putting the mirror up: This is really what was happening, and the behaviors that were really the result of those type of falsehoods and distortions. How do we bring the world back on that kind of axis, so our behaviors and actions are really reflecting the truth? What kind of checks and balances do we have to put in place so no one gets that type of power again? It’s just a culture. You’ve got to clear it. "

Paknis saves no sympathy for McQueary, who is on indefinite leave and reportedly has received threats. And who, Paknis notes, was promoted within a couple of years of his alleged report to Paterno rather than police.

“I hate to throw stones, because I wasn’t there,” Paknis says. “I would like to like think I would have controlled my rage enough not to kill Jerry. But I would have responded in a physical way, with my main objective to protect the young boy. Taken him to police, and left Jerry incapacitated.”

And certainly, he saves none for Paterno, whom he calls a “spin doctor” who believed too much of his own hype.

“It’s sort of an empty reaction,” Paknis says. “Almost like a pitiful reaction. I wish (his ouster) had happened 10 years ago when he first knew about it. I don’t know how much longer he’s going to be here. If it is true, I would have enjoyed seeing him receive a minor, tiny fraction of the pain that was felt by these kids. And that would be plenty. You can add all the infractions in the history of the NCAA, and it wouldn’t add up to the loss of all these boys’ souls.”
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#529 rimrocker, Nov 14, 2011
across110thstreet Contributing Member

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Air Langhi said: ↑

What about CPS that investigated and didn't do squat. There were a lot of people in the know. What about the coaches wife. Didn't she wonder why does my husband go hangout in the basement with the kids at night. The parents of the kids who didn't call police. The teachers who basically didn't think hmm there is an old guy who keeps hanging out with this kid. That Grand Jury testimony was pretty sick. There were plenty of times to catch this and hindsight not being 20/20, but a lot of people just looked away. They didn't want to be involved. Here were going to be no heroes in this case. People didn't want to do the right thing. These kids were "troubled youths."

In this case a majority of people just looked the other way not just joepa or the GA or the administrators. That GJ testimony was just a sad sad thing to read.
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the call never made it as far as CPS from what I have read. the DA and investigator dropped the charges. they are part of the alleged cover up.

What about the coaches wife? it doesn't matter what she wondered at night.
she is not a mandated reporter as the school officials are.

"parents of the kids who didn't call police"- you have no evidence of this either, although we all all want to know why they ones who DID call police didn't give up pressing charges.

teachers who didn't connect the dots are different than school administrators who didn't report the anal rape happening in their facilities.

that's why the GJ report says as mandated by law- its all about knowing the abuse is happening by either witnessing the act or if a child confesses he or she is being abused.

#530 across110thstreet, Nov 14, 2011
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Sandusky speaking tonight(or at least airing tonight) to Bob Costas on 'Rock Center' with Brian Williams.

"I dont believe it's my fault but I played a part in it.'

'I shouldn't have showered with those kids. That's what hits me the most.;'

Sexually attractive to underage boys?

Sexually? I enjoy young people. I love to be around them. But no, not sexually attractive to young boys.

Said it was horseplay in the shower. 'Snapping the towel and sliding around.'

. . . . . . .

Per the testimony of McQueary, who was placed on paid administrative leave last week, the then-grad assistant witnessed Sandusky sodomizing a 10-year-old boy in the shower of the school’s football building in 2002. Based on the grand jury’s presentment in the case, it appeared McQueary did nothing to stop the alleged attack, deciding instead to run and call his father, who told him to leave the building.

According to McQueary, that’s simply not the case.

In an email to former teammates obtained by NBC News correspondent Peter Alexander, McQueary said that “the truth is not out there fully”, that he “didn’t just turn and run.” Instead, McQueary states in the email, “I made sure it stopped.”

McQueary went on to write that “I did the right thing… you guys know me” and he “had to make quick, tough decisions.”
Click to expand...

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/14/mcqueary-i-didnt-just-turn-and-run/

#531 J.R., Nov 14, 2011
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hsf09 said: ↑

Sandusky speaking tonight(or at least airing tonight) to Bob Costas on 'Rock Center' with Brian Williams.

"I dont believe it's my fault but I played a part in it.'

'I shouldn't have showered with those kids. That's what hits me the most.;'

Sexually attractive to underage boys?

Sexually? I enjoy young people. I love to be around them. But no, not sexually attractive to young boys.

Said it was horseplay in the shower. 'Snapping the towel and sliding around.'

. . . . . . .

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/14/mcqueary-i-didnt-just-turn-and-run/
Click to expand...

I think I may vomit.

#532 ascaptjack, Nov 14, 2011
B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"

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Major said: ↑

... If a person has ANY breaking point, you'd think this case would be it. ...
Click to expand...

This, or gang rape of a woman, or ethnic cleansing, or institutionalized and brutal slavery (ongoing in the world, btw. you can find sweatshops in most major cities in the US even.)... etc.

But yeah, I agree.

#533 B-Bob, Nov 14, 2011

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JasonLaCanfora Jason La Canfora
Not that I can believe what this despicable scumbag says, but if Paterno never even questioned him, he is a failure as a human being

#534 ascaptjack, Nov 14, 2011
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How can you deny being a pedophile but admit that you were sliding around in the shower with little kids.

#535 Shaud, Nov 14, 2011
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#536 J.R., Nov 14, 2011
Last edited: Nov 14, 2011
SwoLy-D Contributing Member

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"Are you saying that you never had any inappropriate sexual contact with any of these underage boys?"
^ That question isn't even right, Mr. Costas... don't know why you have to add "inappropriate" there as an adjective.

Shaud said: ↑

How can you deny being a pedophile but admit that you were sliding around in the shower with little kids.
Click to expand...

Because he may think that some of those things are "okay" while doing them, and now that he's being charged, he still doesn't believe he has done anything wrong. That's what I believe is happening in his mind.

#537 SwoLy-D, Nov 14, 2011
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hsf09 said: ↑

Sandusky speaking tonight(or at least airing tonight) to Bob Costas on 'Rock Center' with Brian Williams.

"I dont believe it's my fault but I played a part in it.'

'I shouldn't have showered with those kids. That's what hits me the most.;'

Sexually attractive to underage boys?

Sexually? I enjoy young people. I love to be around them. But no, not sexually attractive to young boys.

Said it was horseplay in the shower. 'Snapping the towel and sliding around.'

. . . . . . .

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/14/mcqueary-i-didnt-just-turn-and-run/
Click to expand...

Confirmation to all charges.

#538 ubigred, Nov 14, 2011

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ubigred said: ↑

Confirmation to all charges.
Click to expand...

I don't condone any inappropriate behavior with children at all, but, please help me point out what you mean... because I can't clearly say that he's "affirming" or "confirming" any of those charges with those responses. At times he seemed shaky on the answers, but I don't see a clear "YES, I'm GUILTY OF THE CHARGES" statement.

Also, on the questions about Mr. Paterno, he was saying clear "NO, no, no." to Costas's answers. This is #($*&#)#& STRANGE and sad, mind you all.

#539 SwoLy-D, Nov 14, 2011
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NYT reports tonight "close to 10 additional suspected victims" have come forward. http://nyti.ms/tQxetr

#540 J.R., Nov 14, 2011

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