First off, Steve Alford doesn't play anymore. Hasn't played in 10 years. Why would I waste my time talking about him? Secondly, The NBA will put in rules for playing the zone defense, such as, 3 defenders must be on the strong side at all times, no more than 2 defenders in the lane at any time. The NBA wants to display the talent they have, not shut it down. ------------------ "Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."- (Aldous Huxley) [This message has been edited by BobFinn* (edited April 04, 2001).]
Bob*, is that really what they are discussing. Defining what is a "legal defense". I read it as eliminating the definition of illegal defense defined in 1981 and adding a 3-second defense rule. If they do the definition of legal zones like you suggest, I can not see how they could officiate that. If 3 men have to be strong side, I would isolate a sacrificial-lamb Shandon out high and put 4 guys against their two on the other side, and when I clap my hands, I'd have Shandon jump in the air and make a skip pass for a 4 on 2 scramble. lol! Also, the no-two-defenders-in-the-lane thing is weird....any defender must be allowed into the lane so the offensive player doesn't use a painted line to shield his man. That would simply be the 3-second rule they are discussing...no? all I'm saying is rule changes often don't produce what is intended...the NBA should strongly consider all the consequences of a smothering zone with a premier center...and that 3 second rule won't be enough stop him. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited April 04, 2001).]
I didn't find it at the chronicle site, but it is on ESPN Zone D isn't for Rudy T Coach Rudy Tomjanovich isn't thrilled about the NBA's notion to eliminate all illegal defense rules. "It will be a different game," Tomjanovich told the Houston Chronicle. "We should create a situation where great players get a chance to excel because they can do so many great things. That's the direction we should be going instead of taking things away." One thing that would go away is the isolation offense. No more clear outs, no more backing down the lane for a little one-on-one schooling. "Zones neutralize great athletic ability," Tomjanovich added. "I don't think it would be good for the league as far as entertainment. People want to see the guys who can soar to the basket soar to the basket." -------- [This message has been edited by Band Geek Mobster (edited April 04, 2001).]
If you want zone defense you might as well watch college ball right? The NBA would straight up suck if they decided to do this. Also the defensive three in the key is also r****ded. The only one that might be allright is the one where you can play on the ball after it hits the rim. ------------------ Rasheed Wallace gots mad skilz. Who cares about the techs?
The scary thing is these rules might get passed. A week from now they'll vote on whether to accept the rules. http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2001/0404/1167571.html NBA rules vote on tap NEW YORK – NBA teams will vote April 12 on a package of rules changes, including allowing zone defenses for the first time. One proposal already has been dropped: changing goaltending rules to let players touch the ball while it is on the rim. With scoring down and teams increasingly relying on isolation plays, the league's Board of Governors discussed five possible rule shifts at a meeting last week. The proposals still on the table:[*] scrap illegal defense rules.[*]institute a defensive 3-second rule.[*]give teams 8 seconds instead of 10 to bring the ball past midcourt.[*]redefine incidental contact to cut down on touch fouls. Those four will be considered as a package, so either all will be accepted or none will. The vote will be done by conference call and the measures need approval from 20 of the 29 teams. Phoenix Suns owner Jerry Colangelo, who headed the committee that drew up the suggestions, said a straw poll at the Board of Governors meeting indicated 22 teams would approve of the changes. He's talked to coaches, general managers and players since to gauge support. "I'm aware that there's not 100 percent agreement," Colangelo said Wednesday. "I've been around this game for 3½ decades and there's never been agreement. Some people are just not very happy about change and this is a considerable change." The idea is to discourage teams from gearing offenses toward 2-on-2 or 1-on-1 isolation plays in which a majority of a team's players stand idle on the weak side to draw their defenders away from the ball. That strategy has helped drain points over the last decade, with scoring down about three points per team per game from last season. The goaltending guideline didn't last long, but Colangelo said it could be brought back and tested during summer league games. "There have been enough reservations from various sources about that rule," Colangelo said. "One of the major things we've heard is it's fine in international ball because it only happens a couple of times a game, but our athletes play so much above the rim it could have a real impact. It takes away some of the drama of a ball that hangs up there and has a chance to go in." ------- I don't know if you can trust Colangelo's little poll, but if it's accurate then we're seeing Zone next year. --- [This message has been edited by Band Geek Mobster (edited April 04, 2001).]
HP, Australia might not have Duncan and Robinson manning the paint and 3 quick guards catching the shooters, but Australia also does not have Shaq and Kobe playing offense, so really that a not a great example, as a zone in the NBA will be much tougher than one in the NBL, but the offense will also be much better. If Kobe catches the Ball in the corner against the Spurs 2-1-2 zone, the baseline player goes out to guard him, leaving the centre to play Shaq 1 on 1 , once he gets the ball it's the same as it is now, the collapse and double/triple him. If they re-introduce zones it is because the current coaches (especially Rudy and Sloan) have found the best way to beat man defense through 1on1 and 2on2 isos. Sure zone may slow things down for a while but we some practice and time zones can be punished/scored on just as much as Man defense. Smegman ------------------ "Repression never did me any harm (I finally ceased to include "stop masturbating" as one of my guilt ridden New Year's resolutions, but that's a different topic)." Achebe - programmer by day, Mrs Palmers Husband by night
Here are my suggestions: Move the 3 pointer back. This opens up the floor. Don't allow sagging defense. Either you play straight-up defense one-on-one or you are illegal. Cut the shot clock to 20 seconds and the time to cross half court to 8. Widen the court. The court is the same size it was when the game was invented yet the players are much much larger. ISO's would be tougher with a bigger floor because defenses would have more time to react to a penetrating player. Who knows if any of those would work or not. I'm no expert! ------------------ And then, depression set in...
HP- Boy, by listing so many different college teams who found so many different many ways to win, don't you see that the same could be true in the NBA? You seem to be very worried that a very one-dimensional epidemic of defense will take over the league, which can't be compared to any other. So we have freakish defenders. We have freakish offensive players too. But I think you're only seeing one side of that- the defense side. I agree about all the berating of players and their intelligence. That is all a bunch of crap. These guys could learn any number of systems. The best defensive team won the title the last ten years. Agreed. The NBA is playing the best defense ever in the most defensive league ever. Agreed. I'm just not relating to your horrific visions of great defensive centers "roaming free." How are they going to be any more free than before? Hell, the far majority of all illegal D calls are made on perimiter players? I think this defensive 3 second rule could turn out to be total bunk, but it's more than we've got now. They're going to roam the paint anyway, like they are right now. How will that change? So some teams like us want guys like Collier and LaFrentz and 7-foot shooters like Langhi and Nowitski. Who's going to cover them in a zone on the perimiter? Will that suddenly be revolutionized too? You ask why we need to make this change. Because iso-ball will be hindered; you already know that. You've already accepted the role of iso-apologist on the board, usually saying you don't like them either. But now you're going pretty far to defend it. This rule change will make a very fast paced game with a lot of pressing and lots of possessions. It may also make for a lot of terrible shot selections and bad jumpers, which would suck. But still, the idea is tantalizing to me. Is a zone under the basket really going to suddenly shut down all offense that goes to the hole? Yes, teams with awesome centers like SanAn, Philly, and LA will dominate. Uh, what else is new. They already are. Teams that play great defense will win games, as they always have. Are you convinced that Miami and Spurs are going to create unrivaled dynasties because of this rule change? So, the question seems to be, will the premium on defense increase, or will the premium on offense increase to attack those better defenses? Why would a league dominated by defensive-oriented titles change their recruiting strategies by implementing zones? Bingo. With that first sentence, you're really getting to the point. But the second sentence exposes your defense-colored glasses. Those "defense-oriented titles" are just as every bit offense oriented titles! Just as sure as the NBA will invent new ways to use zone that have never been seen before, it is just as certain we will see attacks on the zone that have never been seen before. Wicked athleticism goes two ways.
HP- It seems the conversation has shifted to the other thread, so you can respond in that one, for simplicity's sake.
Who says the Spurs would play a 2-1-2? Did you read this thread: <a href="http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/Forum3/HTML/012382.html">Types of Zones</a> ------------------ "The BBS is cc.net's version of Fight Club," Clutch "I want you to hit me, as hard as you can..." ZRB
Thanks for the great response Nolen. I hate to stereotype stuff like your response by saying we are stuck on theoretical logic, and deconstructing each other. I really do enjoy reading your take. I'll just end with my final emphasis, which I've already stated: This league wins on defense, UNLIKE THE GLORIOUS '80s, and we are fixing to give an even bigger advantage to the defense. I understand that it will be cool to watch responses to zones with wicked teamwork...you know that's why I love this game...not because of all the athletic ISOs.
HP, just re-watched the rockets home game against the Mavs from 5th of Dec 2000 that Davo sent me, do you remember it at all??, it was the one where kenny and Mo and Nash didn't play and Dirk and Steve both had plus 30 pt games. The Mavs for most of the second half played a 1-2-2 zone and double the guards at the top. Man did the Rockets handle it poorly, the mavs were spread right out, with the front three all above the 3pt line and the two at the back right on the edge of the key way next to the basket. So what do the rockets do, but spread out a play 5 out, when the gap in the middle was soooo big, all it would have taken was for the players in the weak side corner spot to cut to the foul line area and the zone would have be torn to pieces. Additionally the only time the rockets scored were when the guards beat the doubles at the top and made dribble penetration to the basket, this also included a Bullard dunk on a back door cut from a very special pass from Cat after he penetrated the zone. Just some random zone play talk. Smeg ------------------ "Repression never did me any harm (I finally ceased to include "stop masturbating" as one of my guilt ridden New Year's resolutions, but that's a different topic)." Achebe - programmer by day, Mrs Palmers Husband by night
To those who are set against rule changes, While I do agree that the rules are being changed at an alarming rate recently, I would not say that rules should never be changed. For example, originally there was a jump ball after every made basket, should we bring this back? What about no three point line? What about being able to cross the free throw line on foul shots? I personally thought that the game was fine in the early ninties. I wish that they would restore those rules and otherwise leave the game alone. ------------------ "Of course, thats just my opinion, I could be wrong" -- Dennis Miller
I'll just end with my final emphasis, which I've already stated: This league wins on defense, UNLIKE THE GLORIOUS '80s, and we are fixing to give an even bigger advantage to the defense. Emphasis duly noted. The game evolves, and it has evolved into a defensive game. It is rather ironic that the teams are ready to vote for this rule change that would make defense easier. I think that is really the best word for it- defense becomes easier to do. What is also ironic, though, is scoring could still go up, because possessions per game are going to go up. What is so exciting about discussing this is we don't know what the hell will happen. Not really. Introducing the myriad zone defenses, and the myriad possibilities to attack those defenses, into a league of such freakish size and athleticism... Man. Who knows? There could be a whole shift of power in the league. A shift putting emphasis on certain types of players, certain types of teams, certain types of coaches. It could be really bad, but it could be excellent. And I find that exciting. I think it's worth the risk. By the way, Jeff, I'm totally with you on just increasing the court size. Most of these guys can get to the hoop from the 3pt line in like, three or four strides? It's time to give these guys some room, spread the defense, give the offense more space to find their spacing. I think it could make the game more elegant and easier to follow. And, it's not a rule change-refs can't screw it up!
I love random anything in game action talk. Was that really a 1-2-2, without a strong post defense!!! Dallas is not really known for defense in an illegal defense league.
HP, It was clearly a 1-2-2 with the one at the top (finley) coming over and double whent he ball was on the wing (you know what i mean, i was Finley at the top and then Eisley and Buckner on the wings and Bradley and Nowistki at the back) so when eisley or buckner stepped out the player witht he ball in their area Finley cam across and doubled and while this was going Dirk and Bradley just sat back at either low block and pretended they were guarding the rockets int eh corner. Calvin and Bill were just going OFF and saying this a straight up zone and you could even hear Rudy say to the refs in one stoppage of play "that is a straight out 1-2-2 zone". I also proved one of my points cause it was a terrible zone and deserved to be ripped apart. My point is initally i think the zones won't be great cause it takes a fair bit of skill to execute a good stiffling zone. Wish you still had copies of that game (mavs v rockets) and also the denver v rockets from nov 30th so we could talk game action, seems like our preseason effort to get everyone in shape was a completely waste of time, cause there seems to be very minimal game action discussion this season. ------------------ "Repression never did me any harm (I finally ceased to include "stop masturbating" as one of my guilt ridden New Year's resolutions, but that's a different topic)." Achebe - programmer by day, Mrs Palmers Husband by night
Alright...put Nolen and Smeggy on my Dr of Dunk list for posters who need satellite dishes.... this is too awesome....i want more!!
just note Smeggy, just because the 1-2-2 by Dallas without a low post presence and unwillingness to give away the zone plans by bringing in the praying mantis, doesn't mean the 1-2-2 is a weak zone. You need a San Antonio tape!!
It was that TERRIBLE when you see how big the gap in the middle of it was (i will cut some of the file and email it to you over the weekend), it was truly a shocker that the rockets nearly choked agianst got lucky thaks to two Bull threes. ------------------ "Repression never did me any harm (I finally ceased to include "stop masturbating" as one of my guilt ridden New Year's resolutions, but that's a different topic)." Achebe - programmer by day, Mrs Palmers Husband by night
Another good article from ESPN: http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2001/0330/1164788.html Rule changes will promote more flow Associated Press NEW YORK – Whether it's a box-and-one, a triangle-and-two, a 2-1-2 or some other variation, zone defenses have long been a staple of college basketball. Not so in the NBA. Though pro teams have been known to resort to quasi-zone tactics, the league's rules have never permitted zones. That could change next season. With scoring and TV ratings in decline as teams increasingly rely on isolation plays, the NBA Board of Governors discussed a package of changes Friday, including doing away with complicated illegal defense rules. "This is going to a different place for the game," commissioner David Stern said. "We're trying to ensure the game will have more movement, passing and a faster pace." The proposals: scrap the illegal defense rules; institute a defensive 3-second rule, whereby defenders would be allowed to stay in the lane for 3 seconds unless they were within arm's length of an opponents; give teams 8 seconds instead of 10 to bring the ball past midcourt; redefine incidental contact to cut down on touch fouls; and allow players to touch the ball while it is on the rim. "I came away persuaded," deputy commissioner Russ Granik said. "You're never certain exactly what the results will be with rules changes, but it's worth taking a chance here." The changes are meant to discourage teams from gearing offenses toward isolation plays in which a majority of a team's players stand idle on the weak side to draw defenders away from the ball. That trend has helped fuel a decrease in points over the past decade. Teams are averaging 94.6 points, down about three points per game from last season. "I'm all for it with some guidelines, simple guidelines. I guess it would get us to playing some basketball, have more movement of the ball and take away the isolation, or at least some of it," Dallas coach Don Nelson said. Not everyone shares that view, though. "I hope it never happens. That would be the worst," New York's Latrell Sprewell said. "They're worried about scoring, but if you have a zone, can you imagine a team like Miami, for instance, with Alonzo (Mourning), (Anthony) Mason and Brian Grant sitting in the paint? You'd never get a layup, and would have to shoot jumpers all day long. Guys would become better shooters, but you wouldn't have the same plays." Phoenix Suns owner Jerry Colangelo, who headed the committee that drew up the proposals, said there would have been the necessary two-thirds support had there been a vote Friday by the representatives of the league's 29 ownership groups. Instead, teams will have a chance to weigh the suggestions before voting in about two weeks. If approved then, the changes would take effect next season. "They're putting all these rules in there for the fans, trying to get low scores, trying to get high scores," Celtics guard Kenny Anderson said. "Maybe they should put the 3-point shot at the foul line."
