When you think fundametally sound basketball, who comes to mind? Who are the most fundamentally sound players in the league? Guys that come as close to doing it all as anyone. Dribbling, Passing, Rebouding, Defense, Shooting. 10 who come quickly to mind: Tim Duncan Kevin Garnett Jason Kidd Chris Webber Kobe Bryant Tracy McGrady Paul Pierce Gary Payton Latrell Sprewell Jalen Rose Grant Hill Young ones: Baron Davis Lebron James (hehe) Pau Gasol Others in twilight of career known for doing it all: Scottie Pippen Michael Jordan Karl Malone Vlade Divac John Stockton Anthony Mason Anfernee Hardaway Micheal Finley who am I missing
I know you didn't put FT shooting in your criteria, but a PG that shoots 50% from the line is not someone who is 'fundamentally sound' as a basketball player.
just to make this controversial....it didn't take too much thought to come up with that list. Many of us can rattle off similar lists and be pretty close to agreement. So, my question is, why do we keep hearing that the European upbringing is any more fundamentally sound than US training. Nowitzki and Peja are both supposed to be fundamentally strong Euro's, but how do they stack up? They are great scorers, but are they really well-rounded. Are they even close to being on your 3rd Team All-Defense, much less 1st or 2nd? Passing? Do they really run offenses like Duncan/Garnett/Divac/Webber, or are they end points of the offense who are to score. How close are they to being called playmakers? Why aren't there more PGs from Europe? Why aren't there more SGs from Europe? Versus the precedence set by the most fundamentally sound NBA players are Euro stars even close to the well-rounded players from US training?
HP, When people throw "fundamentally sound" around in regards to European players, they are meaning it in a different, skewed, way. Here is what it means: they can shoot and they can play a "team game." These are just people who don't like the inner city game - which starts more individually and based upon athleticism...learning proper shooting mechanics is not a strong priority...it will have to be honed after they turn pro.
Take some liberties then. If you want to say Nowitzki and Peja's are fundamentally sound, fine. But you still have to compare them to those who define the term in today's game. Neither one of them are noted playmakers, which tends to be the main criteria of fundamentally sound because he requires dribbling/shooting/passing/ court awareness and knowledge of the game. Nellie says Nowitzki must improve he passing, because double teams can stop him, nowhere close to Duncan/Garnett/Webber/Divac in that respect, and Peja is clearly not a playmaker, at the same level of the point forwards and SGs. For some reason, we tend to not describe guys like Garnett, Kobe and Tracy as fundamentally strong...but they really are in the top group that defines the terml. How do the crops of Euro's stack up with the best?
I think the whole fundamental thing is that Europeans have a more consistent jumpshot and finally their athleticism is starting to slowly catch up. The problem is that more American players are more fascinated with dunks, flashy handles and 3pointers than mid-range and consistent shooting. If you don't believe me then just watch a HS All-American game.
tozai, As I watch more and more Euro clips of their Finals, I'm beginning to think there is something else. You know how Germany is known for defense in the World Cup and Brazil for offense. They are both considered fundamentally strong, despite Brazil being "flashy." Similarly, there seems to be a character of ball that defines NBA versus Euro. In the biggest of generalities while trying to respect both games, I'm beginning to define it this way: NBA: Fundamentally strong team defense, with a propensity to field defensive specialists. Offenses that rely on the creativity of playmakers/scorers. Euro: Fundamentally strong team offense emphasizing attacking. This tends to limit your ability to field defensive specialists, but produces teams hard to defend. By emphasizing defense and creative playmakers/scorers, the American game deemphasizes midrange shooting from role players, by choosing to develop defensive stoppers out of college over pure shooters, and not surprisingly, the best players can do both--a stopper and a scorer. Without facing the strongest defenses in the world, maybe European players are not developing as NBA-class playmakers, although they have great scorers nonetheless. If they had great playmakers, I'd expect their PGs and SGs (like Euro's top player Dejan Bodiroga) to make a bigger impact in the NBA. So, is their fundamentally sound team offense really producing the best in fundamentally strong players?
Well first of all, up to a certain age, I think it's more of a comparison between Euro vs. College or even in some cases HS. With players coming out at 18 or 19 like Parker and Dirk, they are way way ahead of high school players. So the main comparison is between Euro players versus college players, right? Most Euros are drafted as prospects (Tskitisvilli, Hedo, etc.)and not expected to make an immediate impact. Yes, Parker did surprise greatly along with Gasol. We expect Nachbar to make an impact as well, but how long did it take until Dirk or Peja were where they are at. It was at least a full season if not more. Ginobili is SUPPOSED to make an immediate impact, but more Europeans are given some time to develop. Now if we want to compare the pro game in Europe to the NBA... I think your generalizations were pretty accurate. I'd be curious to see how average team assists per game now compare to back in the 80s in the Bird & Magic era. I'm pretty sure they have gone down. I think your emphasis of "American" defense might be a little overrated because the level of offensive ability is so high among some of the players that no so-called defensive stopper will be able to do much. The difference is that American defenders are just flat-out better than Europeans. They are more physical and aggressive and just play with a different demeanor(generalization, for the most part). Look at how Turkoglu or even Peja react in clutch situations or when someone starts to body up on them too much. Another thing is that the mid-range game is still here, it's just that most players here don't have the consistent shot of Terrell Brandon or Sam Cassell. This goes back to the development of skills. Players in HS and often in college can rely on their athleticism to create shots often driving and dunking. (See:HS All-star games, or just watch top local teams) When they're going to shoot they figure they might as well shoot 3's if they're going to shoot at all. The reason European players are being picked over college players is because they go through a better system IMO. I don't know if you saw Quin Snyder compare the NCAA training to European pro training on Draft Day, but he summed it up pretty well. They can play pro ball from 15 and get much better competitive experience. By the time they're 19, you have someone like Tony Parker who could've gone to UCLA but instead was running a contender team like a veteran. --So, is their fundamentally sound team offense really producing the best in fundamentally strong players? It depends what you think is fundamentally strong. They might not be as strong defenders. They might not be as good individual creators of their shot or teammates. They do have a more well-rounded offensive game...*A JUMPSHOT*... They understand ball-movement, consistent jump-shooting, and team basketball much better though. They're just better "schooled" than many American players because they have more time. The knock on them has always been being too soft and not being athletic. Now you're seeing players who are more athletic succeed. We've been seeing great scorers mostly in the SF mode, but play-makers are starting to pop up and we'll see how they do. Already Parker, but now Welsch, Lopez, Jaric and who knows who else.
Better than the top in the list? Kobe, McGrady, Duncan, Webber, Garnett, Divac, Payton, Pierce...and we hear Lebron James. Do any of them generate better ball movment and understanding of basketball than Jason Kidd? Surely that is a generalization of the Euro leagues, not these Euro players in the NBA. Euro still is not coming close to producing the most fundamentally sound individuals. I don't believe America lacks training of the fundamentals, team basketball, ball movement, etc. I believe the game is evolving and rewarding teams that can stop "team offensive schemes." I believe the game has evolved into rewarding teams that can stop team offenses, by beating you with defense and creative playmakers/scorers. Focus on defensive/rebounding fundamentals from your role players to shut down any team-based offense that doesn't have a great playmaker/scorer. Not to say you are void of "team offense" on these teams, just that you are emphasizing the best in team defense over team offense. It is a different approach to the game. One is not a better understanding of team ball or fundamentals more than the other. The question is: can any of the Euros play the US game of defender/playmaker in one person?
Come on, how can you leave off Mr. Quadruple Double, the Dream?!!!! (in the twilight section - ok, maybe the close to midnight section).
I wasn't comparing Euro prospects to the top players in the NBA... I was comparing them to college prospects. I was generalizing the up and coming young Europeans to the young Americans. If you have watched top local teams play from major cities like Houston, NY, LA etc. you'll see a deemphasis on fundamentals and kids getting aways with relying on their athletic ability. The supposedly best HS players in the All-American games for the last few years might show you what I mean. I'm not comparing European prospects to McGrady, Kobe or Kidd. I'm comparing them to the top college and HS players. --I don't believe America lacks training of the fundamentals, team basketball, ball movement, etc. I believe the game is evolving and rewarding teams that can stop "team offensive schemes." I believe the game has evolved into rewarding teams that can stop team offenses, by beating you with defense and creative playmakers/scorers. Focus on defensive/rebounding fundamentals from your role players to shut down any team-based offense that doesn't have a great playmaker/scorer. Disagree, I believe that America does lack the training in the fundamentals currently. A few decades ago, the basketball had much more ball movement and better jumpshooting. Now players are much more athletic and create shots on their own much more. It seems like Europeans still play that old style. Things have obviously changed as scoring is way down from previous times. So maybe a middle ground would be nice where team ball would be played a little more and shooting would be more consistent. --It is a different approach to the game. One is not a better understanding of team ball or fundamentals more than the other. It is a different approach, and as will be seen in the World Championships, the American way will still be better. However, among younger players I would love to see a European 18 yr. old all-star team play the HS All-American team. I don't think one is better than the other, but the Europeans do understand team ball better than those living outside of Indiana or Kentucky... Fundamental-wise, I still think all that is meant by this is jumpshooting ability and the fall of this among younger Americans. --The question is: can any of the Euros play the US game of defender/playmaker in one person? When speaking of Euros are you talking about ones that are already here or are still there? Also when you say playmaker, do you mean someone who can create his own shot, or create shots for others, or both? I'll say as of now, none of the European players are great defenders. Rick Fox would abuse Hedo and that's just sad. If you're talking about passing then some such as Dirk need to work on it, but others such as Parker seem to have promise.
The Logo Speaketh ------------------------------------------------------ Victor (Harlem): Jerry, thanks for being such a class act and congrats on all your success. I wanted to know your thoughts on how int'l players seem to have better fundamentals than our US players and how we should remedy this. Jerry West: The biggest difference is the way the game is taught. They only play one game a week but practice twice a day. Here in the U.S. the kids today are taught by great coaches, but the problem is that they watch too much SportsCenter and that has very little to do with playing the game but more with the showmanship. ------------------------------------------------------ So Sayeth The Logo...
Well, now you are just pissing me off. LOL just kidding...I'm from Illinois. Illinois is better than Indiana and Kentucky for sure. If fundamentals wasn't preached in the States, why are the majority of great NBA players fundamentally strong at most all aspects of the game. Look at the role players. Christie and Fox know ball movement and team fundamentals, but lack the pure shooting of the Hornacheks and Barry's. What they lack on offense they make up for in better defense. But all four of them understand team ball. As a trend, what we lack in pure shooting is sacrificed for team defense. To me, it is almost an illusory non sequitur. Teams with shooters everywhere can move the ball around, because the defenses can't focus on one player. This is the main requirement of a Bobby Knight team...Knight knows his system fails unless all players can shoot to start with. If those teams aren't around as much anymore, does that mean the country doesn't teach fundamentals? Maybe it is because those teams are being stopped by a trend towards defense. Maybe they can't stop the teams developed around team defense and creative playmakers.
