You are too fixated on the narrative of having Pippen around. Yeah, he was a good option. Because it sure wasn't his scoring, which was still very good at 18-20 ppg. (Scottie was an Allround guy, he didn't dominate in one category over years, he led the league in assist one year and two years in steals, then blocks........) I tell you why Pippen was so attached to Jordan and vice versa, they complement each other to the T........why break up Cindy and Bert, Sigfried and Roy, Bonnie and Clyde? Doesn't mean Scottie was close to Michael, he was a borderline superstar but couldn't win anything without Michael, even quit in Houston, tried to quit in Chicago as well. I guess we can be sure that Magic Johnson was a better player than Scottie. (Magic had a shorter career) Should Kobe Bryant be in the Top 3 convo because he won it all 2x without Shaq and with Gasol, a very good but lesser player than Shaq? Nope..........nvm It's like saying Steph Curry never won without Klay Thompson or Draymond Green. Pippen should be better than those guys but by how much? Should we even care? This is not tennis when Federer or Sampras or Nadal on Clay could dominate on their own. Kareem could never have the ball in his hands as much as a guard, that is just common sense.
Lol. Kareem won a title without Magic. He just so happened to have a guy at that point many considered in the running for GOAT in Oscar Robertson. Without Oscar, Kareem lost in the 2nd round(then known as the conference finals) 1-4, though a rookie. With Oscar, they won a title the following year. They lost in the NBA Finals game 7 Oscars last year before retirement. The following year after Oscar retires, Kareem misses the playoffs entirely(missed the first 16 games after breaking his hand punching the stanchion. He requested a trade to LA or NY, 2 of the top franchises in the league during the season. Whats he do in LA before Magic's arrival? Y1. Miss Playoffs. Remember, this is a prime 26, 27, 28 year old Kareem who has missed the playoffs 2 years in a row now without a GOAT teammate. Y2: Lakers barely get past Warriors in 1st round game 7(though Kareem had a monster game 7), only to get swept in the semis by the eventual champions and UCLA product-Bill Walton(whos only other all star teammate was Mo Lucas-more of an enforcer/blue collar type PF). Y3: Game 1 of the season, Kareem punches a player and breaks his hand. Out 2 months. Lakers still make the playoffs with young Jamal Wilkes, Adrian Dantley and Norm Nixon now on the team. Lose in the 1st round. Y4. 31 year old Kareem now has Wilkes, Dantley and Nixon helping out with over 17ppg each plus 10ppg former star Lou Hudson. The Lakers win only 47 games. Eek out of series clinching game(best of 3 miniseries) by 1 pt. Lose in 5 to the Sonics Y5. Rookie Magic Johnson arrives(+cooper). NBA CHAMPS. Finals Game 6 clinching game, Kareem doesn't play. Magic plays C and has game of a lifetime w/ 42/15/7/3 in a Lakers blowout. Y6. 33 year old Kareem gets dominated by Moses Malone on the 40-42 weak Rockets. Lose in first round. Y7: 34 y.o. Kareem. Magic really takes over as leader and the rest is history. On top of all this. He wasn't a good lleader. And it shows as he wasn't much of a winner without Oscar or Magic, 2 GOATS being the leaders of the teams. Does anyone here from 30's and up(basically anyone from Kobe's prime and older) really remember Kareem ever being talked about as GOAT? GOAT Center, sure. But, All Time GOAT? Magic was getting that talk on a team WITH Kareem. Wilt/Russel and even OSCAR were getting GOAT talk during Kareems entire youth and prime(DR. J still says Oscar is GOAT including other guys from that era-EVEN KAREEM says Oscar is GOAT and better than MJ or Lebron). Then MJ arrived on the scene and we never heard of Kareem as GOAT talk until, not even while Kobestans were saying Kobe was GOAT, hmm...UNTIL: LeBron James arrives to the scene. Surprise, surprise, the narrative changes. "Hey. here's a guy we can say is better than MJ because of all of his accumulating stats and social activism. LeBron has no chance of catching up to MJ's legacy but he could be the greatest all time stats leaders, so lets pump up Kareem as GOAT for Lebrons eventual passing of him being his road to GOAT status." That's basically all this is. Hakeem is better than Kareem.
It's not a narrative, it's just a fact that Jordan never won without Pippen. When you're knocking other players for never winning without other great players you HAVE TO BE consistent and do it for Jordan too. Why is it fair to say "Oh, Kareem was nothing without Magic..." and then not bring up the fact that Jordan didn't do it without his complement of HOF talent too? Scottie Pippen in his prime was not a borderline all-star, he's a bona fide HOF player, one of the best defensive players to ever play, now we're knocking him down to prop up Jordan, this is what I mean that Jordan's narrative always gives him excuses or always gives him credit for everything when it doesn't work like that for other players. Kobe never wins without Shaq, vice versa. Curry never wins without Klay or Green, but those guys are not even on Pippen's level. You think those guys, by themselves, could lead teams to conference finals? Yeah, I don't see it. Curry is probably going to go down as the best PG to ever play depending on who you ask...but at least I don't see people giving Curry ALL the credit. We know it took Kerr's coaching, we know it took getting lucky with drafting Green, having Klay, and then later getting Durant. There is nothing wrong with that, again, all championship teams are stacked. If you're really talking about guys who took none-stacked teams to championships then your GOAT candidate's should be Hakeem and Lebron. They are the only guys that won championships without a legit HOF player by their side. And Dirk I guess If we're going just by winning then it has to be Russel, but again, people always give excuses why it can't be him. If we're going popularity/impact on the game it is clearly Jordan. But Jordan has not done anything these other great players did not do.
Yeah but the affirmative sentence should be Scottie never won anything without MJ and Zen Master. He was a less talented guy than Michael and far less mentally strong. That is all. He is a HOFer but remember Tracy Mcgrady is the same. I just do not get why Pippen as talented as he has been is now elevated to importance on this board when clearly he had the label of a quitter. Dirk never won without Peja or Kidd, big whoop. Greatness should be emphasized because those greats could share the rock with other stars or role players, being good teammates next to being unstoppable. It doesn't take away from said player, it should be a bonus - camaraderie and chemistry.
Again, the argument that "Oh, he never won without another great player" is BS to me. Basically three guys have done that, Hakeem, Lebron, Dirk. Some other guys have gotten close, Iverson I guess...so all I've said is Jordan has never done that. He's always had Pippen, he's always had one of the best coaches to ever play and remember, even this documentary shows Jordan was TOO SELFISH to win without Phil. We can criticize the Triangle night and day but it taught Jordan that he was on a team and he had to share the ball in order to win it all. Phil mentally getting to players has always been his thing, I don't think it's a coincidence he's even won with two of the most selfish players in the game in Shaq and Kobe. Leadership qualities are bred by great coaching, one thing that's been confirmed to me from this documentary is that. Also, I don't care who players say are the best, no one is ever going to say they are best, it's bad publicity and it makes you look silly. Not even Jordan says "Yeah, I'm the goat, no one's ever been better than me." Not even Lebron says that even though it's clear that's how he feels and it's clear he's been the best since he first played in the NBA. As for Lebron, yall can burn me alive for this but I think on paper, skill wise, complete package wise, he's better than MJ. He's also basically a coach himself...and yeah he gets that narrative because of how popular he is, how much he sells, how marketable he is, that is true, but I'm not going to argue anyone that says he's the best. I think people will argue it now because they take him for granted. The real argument against Lebron that will get lost as time goes on is that he dominated a really REALLY weak conference. As for Hakeem v Kareem, no dispute there, but your post is really crapping hard on one of the best to ever play in Kareem, you should put a lot more respect on his name.
What I'm saying is that this argument that "Oh, so and so has never won without that guy..." is never used for Jordan while also being true for Jordan. I really don't care about his career as a Rocket, I think it's not relevant to the discussion here. Draymond Green is clearly not a leader, nor was Rodman, or Pippen, but you put them in the right situation and they do wonders for a team. My point is Jordan gets seem to get sole credit for team success when other great players do not. Like Tim Duncan, who should really be in the discussion but never is because..."Oh, Popovic is such a great coach." or "He had Manu and Parker." but Tim Duncan has to be most underrated player of all time because people just seem to make it out like he just played for a great team. Yet Tim Duncan and MJ have the same thing in common. They both played for some of the best coaches ever and had HOF talent on their team. EDIT: The thing they don't have in common is Duncan was the best player of his era, but Kobe's marketability wiped all of that away. Man, if you give OKC a GOOD coach at the time we're still talking about the 5 titles that team wins lol and what would Harden's or Westbrook's legacy be then? Lesser? Would all the credit go to Durant?
The problem with Scottie was and will always be that he isn't respected among colleagues as Jordan was. He went after Kukoc in the Olympics and was jealous of him when Kukoc joined Chicago. He would always be underrated, some is his own fault, some the circumstances he played under. And Jordan always will have the votes of the players. MJ was feared, nobody fears Scottie, and there were times even LBJ and Durant weren't feared, respected yes. The fear factor is important. Timmy Duncan was underrated but it was also fact that he never repeated or 3 peated once. He wasn't that athletic, that was his one single weakness. People also forgot that Jordan was the big Fundamental of guards. You just used the 'he didn't without X' on Jordan. Three peat isn't something that happens every year.
I used that only in reply to that being used on other players. I think that argument is silly because again, nearly every team that wins a championship is stacked, there are a few exceptions. I didn't use it on Jordan, I said that if you use that argument you can use it for almost any other great player but Jordan stans always use that against other players without realizing it also applies to Jordan. He simply didn't do it. We can try to knock down Pippen as much as we can but the dude is still like a top 50 all-time player, Rodman one of the best to ever play too, we can't pretend these guys didn't help Jordan win games. Of course, they did. It's not a knock on Jordan, as I said, most championship teams are stacked. If Harden wins a championship it's clear it'll be because he's found himself on a stacked team, that's why many greats say judging players by championships isn't fair. Of course Barkley is better than Pippen because Barkley led a team, of course guys like Harden should be over Pippen...or Nash, Iverson, Malone, etc etc I'm just saying the argument that is used against other great players that they needed X player to win should also be the same argument against Jordan.
I think the OKC trio of JH, WB and KD is really unique and interesting. IMO those guys' game is eerily similar. KD being the 7 ft version of the other and shooting above anyone. Their game overlap each other for it to truly unfold. Kevin is a Beta, WB is the most reckless alpha, Harden the laidback alpha.
Lol I am in awe of Jordan but I wouldn't call myself a fan, sure, I am a fan of his game and his traits. But I wasn't a Bulls fan, surely I recognize greatness when witnessed. I think he has many of those fairweather guys but because he cemented his legacy, those 'so called witnesses' have cemented him in their minds as well, indelibly etched. And as you have laid it out, it helped him immensely to be marketed, and commercialized to be the ppl's 'hero'. (wasn't infallible - minor gambling streaks, beating up Steve Kerr, retiring 2x for personal reasons, folks talking about him knowing details about his dad's shooting which is a little far fetched.) I mean sometimes it is truly taxing to pigeonhole each and everyone, just take their accolades and how they played. You all run yourself into some wall for the argument's sake. I have never met a true Jordan fan, to this day. I also do not need a miracle to see that he is the greatest among greats. He has by far the greatest biography, maybe Rodman's could come 1st. Could have played several sports.
Yeah, these guys are fooling themselves . They may not have been as physically gifted but all those guys were all-world skill wise (well, except for BJ Armstrong, not sure why he would be included in a list of HOF's) . Stockton was just Steve Nash with fewer behind the back passes and he was considered a better defender (all time leader in assists and steals). Even guys like Lambeer had solid jumpers and hard nose defense. His skill set probably compares favorably to someone like Jokic and I would consider him more well rounded than a guy like Dwight Howard who can't hit a jumper consistently from anywhere on the court.
Still most of the top tier players played with a lot more talent or other guys in GOAT contention on the same team, which completely outweighs always having had "Pippen" who belongs in the bottom tier of the top 50 nearing being pushed out with the newest crop of stars and even pushed him down at his own position. Phil was an assistant coach unproven. As was Pippen. Both developed in house during Jordans prime, but Jordan was already headed for GOAT status before them with the individual accolades already adding up. With commentators saying he could be the greatest before he even set foot in the NBA(84 Olympics-Knight was saying GOAT before a single NBA game ). If we want to get technical, MJ only ever had 1 all star teammate his entire career-Pippen. And Pippen didn't become one until MJ was 27 years old. Kareem had GOAT status Oscar Robertson after his rookie season until he was 26 and 4x All Star Bob Dandridge. Then had HOFer Wilkes and all stars in Nixon and future HOF'er Dantley before adding GOAT status Magic, HOF'er James Worthy and 2x DPOTY Cooper plus other notable all stars and vet former stars. By comparison, Worthy and Pippen would be near same level/tier as a player. If MJ not winning without Pippen is supposed to be a knock on him, not winning without 2 GOATs should knock Kareem out of even the conversation.
Who is real GOAT talk worthy in general? Lets exclude Hakeem for Houston bias, b/c i think he's had the weakest help of any top 10, but apparently many dont even have him top 10. No one outside of Dallas would put Dirk in. No one outside of SA would put DRob, KMalone/Chuck, same. Magic had GOAT status Kareem and vice versa + weak western conference during career Kareem had GOAT status Oscar and Magic Shaq had GOAT status Kobe and Wade and Injury damaged-destined for HOF Penny. Kobe had prime Shaq and huge size front line post Shaq rings including the ever underrated Pau Gasol(go do a player comparison against Pippen and anyone who has never watched the game would choose Pau Gasol as the better player based on all the raw and advanced stats) Both Shaq/Kobe had prime Phil Jackson already post 6 rings instead of an in house developed, zero NBA coaching experience asst. Coach LeBron had top 3 SG ever in Wade and much more dynamic player closer to Kobe or MJ than Pippen. Kyrie and now potentially one of the GOAT PF's A.D. and much like Gasol,the underrated Bosh. Bird had a full HOF front line and all star pg. - Wilt had all star guys but had to go against far greater stacked teams/ J.West West had Baylor and vice versa and later Wilt. Russell had an entire HOF team. Hondo being one of them, who alongside Cowens would down 2 GOATS KAREEM/OSCAR in g7 of the Finals coached by another former Russell teammate. Shows how much talent Russell was around All these guys have top end teammate caliber higher than 1 Pippen. The only one who can come close in comparison of career path would be LeBron James in '10. Instead of joining with Wade who won his own ring a 4 years prior in MJ like dominance, Bron should have stayed in Cleveland and recruited, or gone to NY with Amare. If he goes on to dominate with an Amare caliber player, his career path stays similar to MJ. But, Wade outclasses Pippen and it's not even close IMO, he outclasses him as much as Kobe does. If there is no Kobe/MJ, Wade is GOAT SG right now even with the shortened career. Instead he chose to be the GOAT MERCENARY career path and he'll never be in the discussion ever again for me.
They only missed a great coach, if they had that, they'd still be winning championships. I don't think there's ever been a greater team assembled in hindsight, three MVPs on one team, they could have worked together. They made it to the finals and they were just babies then, they had to learn how to lose first and then Presti went and broke it up...to the delight of the Rockets of course. That's the thing though. I don't feel he is the greatest among greats. If you give Hakeem a HOF coach and HOF players for most of his career no doubt he has as many rings as Jordan. NO DOUBT in my mind. Same for many great players. I've never said he wasn't great. All I'm doing is bringing up the reality of his situation, that he was fortunate too, as all great players are, like curry would be nothing if he was drafted to the Knicks...well not nothing, he'd probably rack up a few all-stars and that's it. He goes to a well run franchise that manages to draft two of the best pure shooters (including himself) on their team, gets a complete gem in the 2nd round in Draymond, and hires a coach that has apparently learned everything he needed to know from Popovic, MDA, and Phil Jackson, and suddenly Curry is going to be in the conversation for one of the all-time greats. Meanwhile, Harden, who I say today is still better than Curry all around, goes to a team that just didn't have the ability to draft another HOF player to grow with (Morey has never had a top 10 pick so yeah...his own fault for running the team too well) and then was saddled with McHale who was a terrible coach and finally is getting actual HOF help but of course runs into one of the best teams EVER assembled (Still almost beats those teams) but all people will say is that he's Malone, Barkley, Iverson, great, but no rings (and hopefully he will change that before it's all said and done) So all I'm doing is pointing out that Jordan was fortunate to play with Pippen, to have Phil Jackson as a coach, to be in an organization that cared about winning because we've seen alltime great talents...Like Iverson and Garnett...waste their prime years playing on poorly run organizations that barely tried giving them anything to work with. I'm not trying to pigeonhole anyone just saying be fair to everyone. If you're going to say another player won with the help of a HOFamer then you HAVE to say the same for Jordan. That's all.
Dennis Rodman- 2x All Star with the Pistons/ age 34 and almost out the league when he joined the Bulls. Traded for Will Perdue straight up. Literally almost never played in the NBA again. Wasn't selected as an All star as a Bull, playing only 57 regular season games during the 72 win season, 54 the next during the 69 win season, and 66 games for The Last Dance in which Pippen also missed several months. Horace Grant: 1x All Star while MJ was retired. He was a reserve picked by coaches. Even Charles Oakley was selected by coaches for the injured Zo. BJ Armstrong: 1x All Star while MJ was retired. The 2nd leading votes for the East just behind SHAQ. If you're old enough to remember, McDonalds had all star voting. You can imagine a guy with a name "BJ" is going to get a lot of kids votes. But, to bring MJ down, let's pretend he was #2 leading vote based on dominant talent. That's it. Pippen the only teammate and he got all star Pip by age 27. And if "All star" Pippen showed up in Game 7 and gave MJ SOME help, Bulls win their first ring in 1990 against Clyde's Blazers.
@Caesar That's the thing though, Phil and Pippen were still huge plusses for Jordan. If you take them completely away, do you think he still wins championships, 6 of them? Maybe he wins 1 like Hakeem and Lebron, maybe 2, but don't you think that would have changed his legacy entirely? Pippen is STILL a HOF 1st ballot player, to many, one of the best defenders of ALL TIME. Phil Jackson is one of the best coaches ever, like top 3, and I think he's proven that after managing Shaq and Kobe's gigantic egos that he does work some magic on star players that gets them all on the same page. He may not be a master strategist but I think Rocket fans know how big it is to get star players on the same page as we seem to have a super duper star that has issues getting on the same page with whoever he teams with and that's another topic entirely. And I'm not even saying Jordan isn't GOAT worthy, not at all, of course he is. I'm just arguing the "Well it is undeniable that he's the GOAT." kind of argument. Also, I think Shaq carried Kobe, Shaq gets underrated because he played between two eras, 90s and 00s so he sort of gets lost in there and you are completely 100% right about Wade. And completely right about Hakeem. That's my point though, if Hakeem found himself in Jordan's position do we really think he'd do anything less? I think that's why ring counting isn't fair when you're talking about GOATS, some of them were just put in bad situations for most of their careers. Also yeah, Dirk shouldn't be in the discussion at all, I do give him credit for that championship he won, but I'm not even sure if he's top 5 PF for me personally...
Sorry if I missed it but all this Lakers talk and no serious discussion of finals MVP/ HOFer James Worthy?
Laimbeer made the all star team 4x in his career. First time, he was a reserve that barely played, then the next 2 years in a row he was an injury replacement. In 87, reserve. He was a 16 and 12 player in decline by the time the Pistons won back to back, 1 game shy of a three-peat. He probably never makes an all-star team if he's not playing with Isiah through his career, but he had serviceable talents including outside shot as a big and wasn't that stiff when he was younger, he was just an iron man and played through countless injuries. Think of all the bigs that played in that time. From 82-90, no one had more DREB's than Laimbeer. So yeah, he'd probably get on a team if he's a young kid joining the league today. BJ? I'm sure he'd get a shot at a deep reserve role on a team, but not likely to play much. In and out of the league. He barely stayed in the NBA after his Bulls days were over. But, his best talent is just outclassed in todays league and he doesn't offer much else. Asking if those other guys would play today is ridiculous though.
