Joel Osteen/Lakewood: Good for Christianity or Not?

Prosperity "name it and claim it" Christianity sounds great to me. Bigger house, new car, nice vacation, Hmm Hmm Good!

A few examples of "favor of God": Christians will get that job promotion, find a parking space close to the store, get a price reduction at the cash register without asking for it, get bumped from coach to first class on airline flights, get invited to the front of the line when a new register opens when they are at the back of the supermarket line, and be granted exceptions to rules.

Thanks Joel, I feel good now and can't wait to be a Christian!

 

I don't think having a hot wife helps Christianity because if you're a Christian thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife.

I guess being technical though it doesn't say "thy pastor's wife."

 

Mr. MEOWGI- Let me also join in agreeing with that. A good Jesus point taken.

 

No reason to get defensive I wasn't saying you, or Osteen, was being manipulative but you did say you thought it was a good thing that he was bringing more people to faith and you said you've tried to bring atheists and agnostics to faith which sounds like conversion.

If you didn't follow my question was that I believe religion is about transcending materialism and what limited understanding I have Christianity that seems to be a point of Christianity. If that's the case then teaching a prosperity Christianity that offers a way to use Christianity for material gain to me seems self defeating. Given that we live in a very materialistic society that certainly seems like a good way to attract people to the church but if you're attracting people to the church by watering down or altering Jesus' message is that a good thing for Christianity?

The example that I brought up was the Nichorens in Buddhism who say you can chant and meditate for material gain which IMO totally goes against the message of Buddhism. So while Nichorens might claim to be Buddhists I think its worse off for Buddhism if that is the message that they've gotten. Quantity of Buddhists doesn't mean quality.

Well thank you for feeling bad for me. I think.

 

I feel uncomfortable with this topic, but that interview with Larry King is very disturbing. (I added the bolding to the scripture verses.)

I have never seen that interview and I never realized those views were being shared from Christian ministers. I still respect JO, but I cannot respect those views.

We don't condemn anyone, true, but ignore and worse yet not warn people of the extreme danger of facing God with out repentance and faith in Jesus Christ is as self centered and people popularity pleasing as it gets. (see John the Baptist- thanks Max)

If you believe without faith in Jesus Christ someone will not go to Hell that is a Christian heresy.

If you believe without faith in Jesus Christ someone will go to Hell but you don't have enough love to tell them, that is Christian hypocrisy.

Another question- if you believe only God knows if a Buddist or Hindu is going to heaven then how does the Buddist or the Hindu himself know for sure. How could we leave it in doubt? A Christian believes eternity is at stake!

How could anyone who loves people and believes that Jesus is the only way to Heaven be so callous to ignore the information and allow anyone to go to Hell. If there are many paths to Heaven then Christians should leave everyone alone and let them find there own path. (Most every non-Christian holds this belief- a Christian minister shouldn't)

All I got from the interview was that Jesus is not the only way to Heaven.
This is a New Age or Hindu or Enlightened view, but it is not a Bible view or a Christian view.

The emphasis of Christianity is Jesus Christ death and resurrection for the sins of the world. Sin is the problem between God and man. Not happiness or prosperity or a positive healthy lifestyle. Those may be legitimate results of Christianity but the Bible never makes them the object of the Christian life.

Salvation in Jesus Christ IS all about escaping Hell and entering Heaven after death. What would it profit any man to be the most prosperous, blessed, happy, successful person, even gaining the whole world, but to lose ones eternal soul because of sin.

If sin is not the problem with God - then there is a new heresy in our churches- that unhappiness, failure and earthly troubles are mans real problem. Well Jesus should have changed that dying on the cross plan and wrote a book on the keys to being happy and successful in life.

There is no Jesus 'lite' in the Bible- here are some words on condemning.

John 3:16-18 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

Matthew 13:13-23 13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. 16"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it. 23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. 25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. 27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. 29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers! 33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation."

Mark 16:14-16 14Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen. 15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Luke 10:5-15 5These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.' 8Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts; 10take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep. 11"Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave. 12As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. 15I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

 

Not trying to be critical. I was just saying I'm not trying to convert anyone, necessarily.

I'm an Episcopalian, personally. I've been to Lakewood once, when his father was there. I wasn't that impressed.

But I have seen Joel occasionally. I like the fact that his message isn't nearly as condemnning as most churches. I believe when people go to his church, they feel good about themselves.

In the times I have watched him, I've never seen an analogy relating Christianity to success. More often, he tells people they can be happy if they bring God into their lives. I see nothing wrong with his message, personally.

 

According to YOU. Some understand that it is more than that.

How exactly does "believing" in an idea save you?

 

The thing I liked about his views is that he wasn't passing judgement about who goes where and what happens after death. That isn't his job, and I see many Christians doing this all the time. It bothers me. Only God can decide what happens after death, and he will judge the souls of people, not Ministers or other Christians telling people they are going to hell.

Christians are free to believe that some people will or won't go to heaven, but they can't see the soul and what is really in there. It is far better to leave that up to God, and conentrate on living a life following Jesus' message.

I believe Osteen is setting a great example the Larry King interview.

 

I understand what you are saying. I certainly don't go around passing judgment on people's lives - it's not my thinking.

Only God can pass judgment, but too often that is used in a very unloving way.

I do care deeply about someone who is breaking God's commands or who do not believes in Jesus Christ and I feel compassion and a responsibility to share what I believe is the answer to God's judgment of sin. The gospel is foolishness if people don't understand the problem. Nobody takes a medicine they don't want unless they know they have a disease it will cure.

If sin is man's problem and judgment in Hell the consequences and you know a way out- there is a loving responsibility implied- not passing judgment- but intervention out of compassion.

For instance, If someone is sitting in a bus and they have blood dripping from there lips and they are pale as a ghost is it passing to judgment to check with them to see if there is anything wrong?

If you saw a person in a village in Africa dying from a disease that could be cleared up with just good personal hygiene is it passing judgment to offer them the solution to their fatal health conditions, even if they are offended by your message?

If a fireman was walking down the street and saw a roof on fire and he looked into the bedroom window and saw a couple going to sleep shouldn't he knock on the window or the door and wake them up even if at first they are angry with him?

If a couple of young kids are about to go swimming next to the rock jetties in Galveston with dangerous rip currents and you go pull them out of the water and take them to the life guard are you passing judgment and stepping on their rights?

If a policeman walked down a street and looked into an ally and saw a man with his hands around a woman's neck shaking her is it passing judgment to go find out if something is wrong?

If you know to do good but you don't do it is it wrong?

So (speaking of those who believe in heaven and hell and the bible) if your neighbor was in danger of going to Hell for all eternity and you knew the way (in your belief system) it could be avoided but instead you stood by and let them risk their soul for fear of passing judgment, aren't you the one actually condemning them.

If everyone in the world had an incurable disease of the soul that was eternally fatal and you came across the absolute cure would you have the compassion to tell everyone you could or would you fear being misunderstood, nosey and judgmental?

Acts 2:36-40 36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call." 40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day."

Matthew 5:29-30 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Matthew 11:20-24 20Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent (of sin). 21"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths.[d] If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."

Luke 5:31-32 31Jesus answered them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

The words of Jesus Christ- Mark 16

14Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

 

Interesting. I guess you are not high Episcopal?

 

I go to a high church, if that's what you mean.

 

Why, if you are less formal/consistent with your practice? Not judging, just curious.

 

Rastafarian?

 

I go to Palmer. It's where I've gone to for years. It's how I was raised. I see no need to change the Church I go to. As far as practice? Churches change. There's been a huge upheaval in the Episcoplalian denomination since the homosexual became a priest. Regardless of my feelings, I'm not changing my denomination.

 

Not familiar with Palmer. Their website says they have high, evangelical, and charismatic members. Is that right?

Makes sense, though, in that you grew up going there so I understand not changing. If you ever want to explore, though, Trinity's (in midtown) high mass is good. More importantly, though, you (and anyone else) should visit their small Morrow Chapel. They commissioned a bunch of local artists to make the stained glass, altar, altarpiece, etc..

 

i grew up in Trinity!!! i was the 3rd generation of my family baptized there. my nieces and nephews were 4th generation. my grandmother was the church secretary for many years.

i went there twice in the past year...one early morning to see the Lord of the Streets ministry...which is just amazing! and once for a 6 pm rite II service. which really isn't my cup of tea, but i appreciate the beauty of the service.

 

I grew up with St Martins (with GHWB), mostly, even though we didn't live anywhere near the area.

More importantly, did you go into the Morrow Chapel when you went recently?

 

Okay, one more take other than, I'd like to bone his wife.

I think people who are casual Christians hate going to church cause they don't want to sit around for two hours listening to some guy telling them how, and why they are going to hell.

Now that's from what I've seen from other preachers on TV.

I can only go by what I see on TV. I've never set foot in a church other than a church Gym to go ball with some Mormons.

When I watch Osteen, his stuff is a little more uplifting and positive. I guess people like hearing nice things, instead of how we are going to burn in hell because we? (you?) are sinners.

I guess that attracts more people to his church.

He should go be a college football coach, cause he can recruit.

 

I used to go to Lakewood alot. Until I noticed the exact thing that some of you guys are talking about. Which is a big reason his teachings resonate with so many people.

It's the same message weekly -- about what God can do for you, and not so much about what you can do for God.

I was talking to someone about it the other day and commented that it's almost akin to a Tony Robbins seminar with a little 'praise & worship' thrown in.

 

While I don't think he is a money grubber like some other televangelists, Joel Osteen's message does not center on repentence, discipleship and committment, which are hallmarks of the Gospel. When any of the above are discussed, it's in relation to how it benefits the individual here and now, not in the hereafter. In other words, the message seems to appeal to the flesh and to human reasoning instead of the spirit. The true Gospel does not appeal to the flesh or to human reasoning (1 Cor 1:23). My personal opinion is Joel teaches a false Gospel the Apostle Paul would not approve of. People with itching ears (2 Tim 4:3) love listening to Joel and to their great music (I have nothing against good christian music) but they would reject the true Gospel.

I see the spectacular growth in the number of megachurches over the last decade as typical of business principles that have developed in capitalism. Non-members are consumers you want to attract, and the product (both message and methods) must be adjusted to maximize it's appeal. You tone down or eliminate the parts of the Gospel that are offensive, edgy and drive people off (Jesus did the opposite, John 6:53-71) to make the decision easier for people. Instead of acknowledging from the getgo the Gospel is a message that will offend and drive off the vast majority of people, you change it to appeal to the masses. Paul would consider this perverting the Gospel. Of course I'm not saying everyone who likes Joel Osteen has itchy ears, but a very large number fit that category. Nobody who followed Jesus had itchy ears.

Megachurches also offer side benefits like social groups and various activities that fit nearly every category and comfort zone any person could want. (And there is nothing wrong with this in and of itself). Softball and Bball leagues, late 50s no kids at home groups, singles groups, etc, etc are very appealing and are geared to make sure anyone can join the church and find people they like being with. These are major problems at smaller churches, which brings me to another point. Someone posted earlier that Lakewood is geared to attract and convert unbelievers instead of people that are attending other churches. This is completely false. Over the last few years, every one I've met that goes to Lakewood previously attended another church. This is not unique to Lakewood and is mostly true of people I know at other very large churches in town

IMO, megachurches are very much designed to attract prior churchgoers and they do not discriminate. If Joel, or some committee of people he appointed, would meet every new member, ask about their background and where they came from, and dissuaded peole who were previously attending solid churches from switching to Lakewood, I would respect that very much. Or part of their new member orientation program could drive that fact home. If they do something like this already, please advise.

I could say a lot more but I'm sleepy and tired.

Bottom line: I don't think Joel is preaching the same Gospel the Apostles preached. He makes a lot of people happy and feel good about themselves, which isn't a bad thing. But for those who think just because they feel good after service they are going to heaven, this is wrong. They need to hear a challenging Gospel that will bring conviction on them and force a life-changing decision: Believe in the resurrection of Jesus from the dead and become His servant or don't believe. Of course there are "here and now" benefits is serving the Lord (material prosperity is necessarily not one of them), but there are big sacrifices too. Do people get this message at Lakewood? I'm not sure.