Jason Stark Rips Uncle Drayton

Biggio and Bagwell staying for less is a myth. We've only just now gotten Bagwell's contract off the books. Biggio signed a 7 million dollar deal back in the mid-late-90's. AT the time of that signing he made more than: Alou, Bagwell, Everett, Hampton, Derrick Bell (when he was good). He was the highest paid player on the team. His salary was among the tops in the Majors (not up with the superstars, but upper-tier). Bagwell signed a backloaded contract, but certainly not at a discount. Biggio was cheaper later in his career, and he would have been cheaper elsewhere, too--becase he wasn't as good.

Also, while we're mentioning Seattle losing their stars (Griffey, A-Rod, RJ, and who?):
Hampton
RJ
Caminiti (stupidity counts, we still 'lost' him)
Alou
Beltran
Kent

The Astros have lost some extremely productive, "superstar" players, too. Hampton was a 22-game winner who didn't want to be here. RJ was a hall-of-famer who helped us win 102 games and who didn't want to be here. The list goes on and on. It's really funny, after listening to 15 years of whining from fans about Drayton not paying to keep our stars, to hear someone say that he's had an advantage because another team lost some stars.

Yep, larger market and proximity of home always means there's a great advantage. That's how Houston was able to keep Bagwell and Biggio around away from the New York and Boston markets... um, wait... Well, those lower taxes sure kept Beltran here! or not...

Nope, but more trips to the playoffs and more trips to the World Series than Seattle certainly is.

My bad. That 116 games didn't do much to skew their average upward. Take their 116 and the Astros' 102 out, then do your math.

Thanks, I would never have known.

Whilst I have been distracted on the phone with my real job, Ric and Max have answered this much better than I have.

 

But that's basically the same team as this year and it's *not* good. In fact, it's amongst the worst in baseball. All you did was switch out Jennings & Sampson for Backe (a wash at best) & some unknown #2, and plugged in an unknown C for Ausmus.

 

...even though they didn't stay for less money

But that's the point--you can't point your finger at one guy and ignore the other 100.

 

what pipeline, there's ichiro and who else?

 

Kenji Johjima, for one...

 

But even that breaks down, because they're whats-his-name in Boston, and there's the guy Taguchi guy wherever he plays now.

The point is, the "hometown" argument is bogus because any organization can take advantage of players who live nearby. Hell, the only reason the Braves have Chipper is because he's from Georgia. If we don't watch out, they'll snatch Adam (Atl suburbs IIRC) and Roy (Weir, MS) away from us!

 

biggio signed here for less money than he could have gotten other places, that's well documented, backloaded was a favor to the penny pinching mclane and we all know that situation didn't end out happily for neither party

kent also signed here as a free agent, so did caminiti, hampton didn't like management. beltran left for a better market.

but seattle loses all its stars because its well, seattle

beltran is really only one real example of a player who left to go play in a larger market. I never said drayton had to compete with new york or boston, given he's market is in the top third, he should be a lot better than seattle.

don't try to set up the straw man of new york.

that's also mitigated by the weakness of the division, 93 games in the AL sometimes doesn't get you in the post season

just pointing out the mistake

also ichiro is really the only player who makes that argument work

 

here's what you said and what i responded to; the implication is obvious: I'm not criticizing, i'm saying he's had some advantages, including biggio and bagwell staying for less while seattle had to get rid of its stars who didn't want to be there.

what "advantage" did maclane have that seattle didn't? that bagwell and biggio wanted to be here? and mclane deserves no credit for creating that environment?

and "less"? bagwell got paid $17M last year. how many players in baseball made more in 2006?

 

dude, all i was referring to was your geography lesson, so I guess drayton also makes houston a great place to live with no state taxes, he probably also bowl moves gold

 

so drayton gets credit for bagwell and biggio staying but no blame for beltran kent and hampton and kyle leaving?

 

it's, i'm sure, a major selling point, just as NY can offer the sizzle of the broadway's bright lights, san diego can offer the greatest weather of all-time, chicago and boston can offer a century of history and devotion...

and the tax break comes at the expense of playing in relative anonymity here in houston - don't forget that.

regardless, bagwell and biggio could have gone elsewhere and made up the tax difference. they stayed here because mclane took care of them, financial and otherwise. look just at this year alone all that mclane has done for them. it's too easy to throw the state income tax out as THE advantage; it allows your fruitless campaign against mclane to feebly soldier on. there was a lot more to it and mclane deserves a lot of that credit.

 

huh? mclane always gets ripped for losing players - ALWAYS. but he never gets credit for bringing them here in the first place (which is kind of necessary if they're eventually going to leave) or if he does, it's always dismissed as a hometown discount.

mclane has been owner of the undisputed 4 greatest players in astro history (bagwell, biggio, berkman and oswalt) and all 4 are going to end their careers here with the later three joining bagwell in the rafters. and all people like you can say is, "hometown discount" or you focus on the ones that got away. it's amazing, really.

 

first of all I have no campaign against mclane, I said he's basically an average owner. his team reflects that during his ownership, the argument was seattle vs. houston, so while we can go back and forth on why bagwell and biggio stayed, there's no reason for a free agent to stay in seattle (talk about relative anonymity).

ny>houston>seattle as far as trying to build a sports franchise.

 

There went what little credibility you had left in this argument. Look at the payroll numbers. If that's "penny pinching" then sign my boss up!

Exactly! And every franchise has a ton of the same stories. This is the free agent era. Players move around. It's not unique to Houston, either because of an "advantage" or a "disadvantage", both of which are argued here on a regular basis.

All of them? Can we sign Ichiro next year, please?

Oh, it's not a strawman, it's entirely relevant. Every market competes with every other market. If Houston had such a market advantage over Seattle, then New York should have an even larger advantage over Houston. The truth is, players will play where they want to for whatever reason. Every owner has to take advantage of whatever he's got. And you're disingenuously downplaying other market's advantages while overvaluing McLane's. It doesn't wash.

I've already pointed out to you that often the AL West is a turd, as bad or worse than the NL Central.

Because semantics is about all you have left.

Just like Clemens is the only player who makes that argument work for your Astros. Because it's a myth.

 

He certainly gets blame for Kent leaving. He didn't want to re-sign Kent. I guess you can "blame" him for hiring/keeping Dierker which is why Hampton and Kile left. But he did everything within his power to keep Beltran. Beltran gets all of the blame for not re-signing with Houston.

 

no just sign up beltran and hampton and kyle

but houston has many advantages over seattle, that's the argument, thanks for sticking to that and setting up your strawman

maybe, we definitely could use a center fielder due to penny pinching

its not a wash in the case of seattle, no one stays there.

how many years has the comedy central been better than the NL West during the time period you referenced

no just facts not semantics

clemens and to a lessor degree pettitte were the only two players I referenced, and its gone well for mr. mclane since they decided to stop buying the snake oil

by the way, we'll just do that recalculation after this season

 

No, the Texans & their owner are working their 16th month of getting roasted because they have done enough bad things to deserve the heat they've been getting. And Drayton is as much to blame for the mess that is the Astros as is Purpura no matter how much he tries to spin this. The ultimate responsibility always rests on the owner because he is the one constant factor in the organization. I consider Garner to be more a victim of circumstances because he was given a bad team from the start but when things fall apart in baseball it's the manager who pays the price.

 

You have said this several times, and, apart from it being totally ridiculous, I was curious as to what you base this declaration on?

 

None of whom left because of "penny-pinching". I can't believe people still believe this."

I'm sorry you don't understand the relevance. Houston and Seattle don't play all by themselves in their own little world.

Bwahahaaahahaaa! The trade has been maligned because Willy T was cheap! Now you say he's gone because of "penny pinching".

Except Ichiro. And, this argument is so funny in that Seattle was envied by us Houston fans for all their superstars and media attention only ten years ago.

I'll have to do the research; you'll be suprised. The A's have been great only since about 2000; the Angels have been up and down, the Rangers and the Mariners SUCK.

It's trivial. 116 is a hell of a lot better than 102; that was the point and you know it.

Because Clemens is the only player you've got. Pettitte signed a very competitive deal at the time.

...Indeed we shall. And the Astros will still be better.

 

I think his verbiage is certainly overplayed, but the Rockets did merit less attention from all of Houston (not necessarily this shrine for Rockets devotees) during their obvious decline from 1996 - 2005.