1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

James Harden's super power- A world class decelerator

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Nivos, Jan 2, 2017.

  1. Nivos

    Nivos Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2014
    Messages:
    904
    Likes Received:
    887
    Please lock if posted.
    It's a bit old but I just run into that and thought it's an awesome piece.
    Basically it's saying what we all know-
    In a league that worships athletic abilities, Harden is actually quite average.
    So why is he so unique?
    Because he's the best at slowing down.
    Yep. That's his superpower. He can hit the breaks really really fast.
    Like a world class good, not just in basketball. That's a skill I never thought anyone would ever measure.
    Shout out to all of us slow guys. From now on we're not doing things slow, we're practicing decelerating. That's a skill.
    https://www.google.it/amp/s/theringer.com/amp/p/b158d1bf2e22?client=ms-android-google
     
    vator and Rocket_ph like this.
  2. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2006
    Messages:
    89,870
    Likes Received:
    43,282
    The Turtle - arch nemesis of the Flash
     
  3. rockbox

    rockbox Around before clutchcity.com

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2000
    Messages:
    21,655
    Likes Received:
    10,573
    It's not his ability to stop, its the fact that he is super strong and looks to ride a defender all the way to the basket and still get a good shot off in way that invites defenders to foul. He isn't trying to create space when going to the basket. Instead he is trying to reduce the space so he can control the defender.
     
    rocketsfan611 likes this.
  4. DarkHorse

    DarkHorse Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 1999
    Messages:
    6,733
    Likes Received:
    1,247
    For real, did you read the article? He's been measured by sports scientists and everything. I've seen a couple of references to this. Yes he is strong and yes he rides his defenders, but the reason it works is because he is so good as deceleration. When a defender is facing down James Harden, and he goes to make a certain move, their muscle memory is based on the reaction time of most other normal players. But James' ability to quickly decelerate allows him to change his trajectory, force contact, and/or create space for himself. It's the elite skill that sets him apart, and it's a pretty unique skill, so people have a hard time dealing with it.

    I remember Hakeem saying that he always had a hard time defending Mark Aguirre, mainly because Aguirre's shooting stroke was just different enough from everyone else's, and also very fast, that he had a difficult time guarding it. I think it's a similar concept with Harden. Defenders just don't know what to make of his moves in real time, even though he's been in the league for years and years doing some of the same kinds of things.
     
    don grahamleone likes this.
  5. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    62,574
    Likes Received:
    56,317
    It's gotta be the shoes

    OP, yes the the original source article has been posted before. This is a redo article, no? without the data and reasons explained. The original is a better article.

    As I recall, i find the science and data sketchy. They arent directly measuring decelleration like a car test. They are saying an upward force measurement on jumping can be used to talk about decelleration. I'm not a big fan of taking data used to measure one force and saying they define a difeerent force.

    I thought the original data was forming a hypothesis at best, by noting Harden ranks very high in one measure and so maybe that explains our eye test of his euro-step and step-back

    I find that reasoning sketchy but interesting enough to generate publicity for your data science compamy. and indeed now they are getting recycled atricles and reposts on websites, and likely tweeter and facebook
     
    vator likes this.
  6. chenjy9

    chenjy9 Numbers Don't Lie
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2008
    Messages:
    13,534
    Likes Received:
    10,525
    Being able to stop and start on a dime is the driving force of his change of pace playing style that forces opponents off balance to create space. Really though, Harden has a combination of skills, including amazing body control.
     
  7. rockbox

    rockbox Around before clutchcity.com

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2000
    Messages:
    21,655
    Likes Received:
    10,573
    What was there to read in the article other than he measures elite deceleration and a bunch hyperbole? The article shows no example of how that elite deceleration helps him. My premise is that Harden is the only wing in the league that tries to reduce the space with his defender, while every other player in the league tries to create separation. The only other player that is even similar is Lebron, but Lebron still tries to create space once he is at the rim, where as Harden just puts is his arms up inviting the contact. Defenders actually have to try to avoid Harden or they will get fouls called on them. The fact that Harden can still make the shot after inviting the fouls puts defenders in a precarious position.
     
  8. Jatman20

    Jatman20 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2015
    Messages:
    946
    Likes Received:
    528
    Before a first preseason game I predicted 30 pts/7-9 rbs/10+ asts. (On another site). I was told "no way."
    "That would make him the MVP" I responded "So be it." All the indicators were there imo. I also
    mentioned that D'Antoni claimed Harden could get 14 ast per game. I said 10 ast was a given &
    that I wouldn't go 14 ast; but I could see 12 ast per game. Then the discussion turned to TO's.
    I was off there. I said probably 3.2 TO's as Nash said the D'Antoni system makes reads easier.
    Then I looked up Nash numbers & saw how high his TO's were.....oops. I changed that to, as
    long as he keeps TO's to under 6 a game, as Harden will have the ball in his hands so often (usg).
    Nash had a ton of offensive charges.....I feared Harden would as well. Harden & that deceleration
    have been tremendous. Better than the smaller Nash who should have had better body control.
    Amazing!
     
    #8 Jatman20, Jan 2, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
    PhiSlamma15 likes this.
  9. jae713

    jae713 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2008
    Messages:
    2,529
    Likes Received:
    926
    Harden has excellent body control. You hardly ever see him in a position that is not to his advantage.
     
  10. bearded

    bearded Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2016
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    17
  11. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    72,936
    Likes Received:
    111,129
    for the love of God, spoiler that puppy!! I cringe every time I see that photo. :eek:
     
  12. Nivos

    Nivos Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2014
    Messages:
    904
    Likes Received:
    887
    That's a LeBron type feet.
    Maybe that's the secret
     
  13. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    62,574
    Likes Received:
    56,317
    You should also read the original source article. It doesn't do much to explain how they even meausre deceleration. We do know they don't measure it directly like a car test.

    I find it takes complete faith in their hypothesis to even accept the conclusion that some physical skill outside of reflexes is what makes Harden great vs learned and practiced skills like elite dribbling, footwork and IQ to read the D and set up the defender...with drives, fear of fouls and his passing all contributing to elite level of unguardable deception...culminating in the ability to slow down the game in his mind and see a few steps ahead of everyone else.

    I dont mean to be a sour puss about the science of measuring athletic ability, but also don't want to ignore Harden's lifelong hardwork at developing his craft to explain it away with some Super Power. I've never heard anyone describe elite tennis players as having elite deceleration. They say great reflexes, footwork and anticipation.
     
    Nivos and Os Trigonum like this.
  14. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    72,936
    Likes Received:
    111,129
    perhaps super power talk is just nuthuggerspeak for reflexes, footwork, and anticipation. :p
     
  15. Spacemoth

    Spacemoth Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2007
    Messages:
    9,841
    Likes Received:
    4,495
    Every other year Harden contends for the MVP. And every other year in between he contends with prediabetes.
     
  16. Nivos

    Nivos Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2014
    Messages:
    904
    Likes Received:
    887
    Actually Nadal abilitiy to decelerate quicker than anyone on clay, behind his amazing footwork and strength was the one skill that separated him from everyone.
    Good breaks are important.
    But I do appreciate your ability to think critically about statistics. For most of us its as solid as rock once someone gives us percentage next to it.
     
    heypartner likes this.
  17. MystikArkitect

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2006
    Messages:
    10,650
    Likes Received:
    16,000
    This is why super cars have carbon ceramic brakes and the true track cars care more about effective downforce than acceleration times. Why the Viper ACR set all sorts of track records even against cars 10x more valuable.

    Deceleration matters.
     
    don grahamleone likes this.
  18. vator

    vator Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2006
    Messages:
    6,574
    Likes Received:
    13,918
    I forgot about that foot pic. Haha! Please somebody put the Jordan meme crying face on that foot. Please!
     
  19. ThatBoyNick

    ThatBoyNick Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2011
    Messages:
    28,456
    Likes Received:
    43,668
    I read "James Harden su...." on the front page, was about to have a heart attack think he "suffered a injury" in practice lolz
     
  20. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    62,574
    Likes Received:
    56,317
    thx for the compliment.

    Nadal's great ability to slide on clay was actually one of my points about it not being a measurable deceleration science test. As I recall, he often slides into the shot, rather than after the shot. That's a learned skill as part of footwork on Clay, imo. No?

    Anyhoot, it's either reflex/footwork/anticipation, or deceleration is my Super Power too, because one of my greatest skills at tennis was to get around the court and stop / start. I called it reflex/footwork/anticipation and knowing where to be on the court.

    Just like street ballers can have Elite leaping ability and little game or are 5'6...I guess I have excellent deceleration without Nadal's game. Or, it's not something measurable like leaping ability at all. :)
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now