There's so much inaccurate news going around! I shamefully admit that from time to time, this "pile-on" makes me begin wondering about the true feelings about some of our Muslim friends. That's pitiful, I know. I'm just trying to be honest about the role of the (irresponsible as ****) media in the way Westerners are going to begin perceiving their Muslim neighbors. But is it a media thing? It's hard to sort out. It's hard to guage where Muslim America or the Muslim culture stands right now. We remind ourselves "okay, there are 1.3 billion Muslims. There maybe a few thousand terrorists across the globe". But then we remember those occasional conversations w/ hardline Muslims. Damn, just a few years ago I had a friend tell me point blank several anti-semitic things. Or of the innocence of Sadaam, and how he really didn't do horrific things to the Kurdish (sp?) peoples. Or how it's none of our business. **** man. When I see all of these news clips on media outlets that used to not prey on sensationalistic bs like Fox just a matter of weeks ago, or I read a post by jamma34 and remember his unwaivering support of the Taliban, or I read words from Christian evangelists that seem to take delight in the deaths of these thousands, it's not hard for me to postulate that there are more than a 'few thousand' people that believe we got what we deserved. We just notice loud people though... It's easy for me to postulate that there are more than a 'few thousand' people that are Muslim that believe we got what we deserved. In a religion in which one's God celebrates death for that God, that's scary as hell, imo. How do you quantify hate though? And anyone saying we got what we deserved, or cheering this attrocity is doing the same ****ing thing as perpetrating the act as the terrorists. But you can't arrest people for that... you can't wage war w/ a nation for clapping hands... How do you deal w/ that hate? Leave Saudi Arabia? Fine. Tell Israel to get its crap together or they're by themselves? That's a start. That will probably take care of the opinions of many people. But it's not really doable. If the US abandoned Israel, the Arab world would get comfortable, imo... and eventually raise right back up to try to perpetrate genocide against Jews. So we're in a stalemate. We have to play mommy to a culture in which the most belligerent males try to exterminate people in cultures that are not like them. Since Muslim nations aren't responsible enough to do this themselves... I'm sorry, but they're guilty by association. Harboring terrorists is the same thing as trying to perpetrate genocide against other cultures. If this same Muslim culture decides that it can't take acts of war against a fellow Muslim nation without joining in to protect their Muslim brothers... well, what the hell can you do. We still have to fight. Insert more divisions, kill more people. But rest assured, if this becomes a war against Islam, it will only be because Muslim nations make it so. Well, I'm going to go get information on the Navy and the Marines. If they start the draft again, I'll be damned if I get stuck in the friggin' Army. Hmm... maybe I can trade in that Civil Air Patrol Master Sergeant (when I was 13) for a bump up in officer status... ahnnn, I doubt it.
achebe: Which Christian evangelist "seem(ed) to take delight in the deaths of these thousands?" I missed that.
*Standing ovation* Your speech reflects my views as well. I think some people think that we did get what we deseved and I'm not referring strictly to Afghanistan and Pakistan.
thanks gr8-1. $RichyRich$, where have you been man? The christian right tried to capitalize on the Sept. 11th tragedy by saying that b/c of the immorality of the US, God let thousands of people die. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are as guilty as Osama Bin Laden, imo. They didn't just imply that the US got what it deserved, they said it. They may as well start contributing to the terrorist groups, ******* traitors. OBL's carrying out the will of God, in their opinion, is he not? Don't they both want to see God's work done? BTW, I never pollute my mind w/ that 700 club nonsense, but I suspect that there are hilarious times when Robertson and/or Falwell address the problem of evil w/ the little rhetoric where one says "oh you can't interpret God's will". OK. I'm glad both of the arrogant **** for brains did exactly that in the aftermath of this tragedy. They paid absolutely no respect to the people that died. Friggin' frauds.
achebe: that is one major looney-tunes interpretation of what was said by Falwell and for what alleged purpose. Have you gotten Foghorn Leghorn to play Falwell?! How are they "capitalizing" on this exactly? Falwell made a statement which he later retracted and for which he apologized. Where are his "capitalizing" royalties? In fact, he has been very embarassed by all of this. This is piling-on in the worst way. ... as "guilty as bin Laden." Have you told John Ashcroft yet? No, I'm not a contributor to Falwell or Robertson. I just think your "reportage" here is reckless. You still haven't explained where the "delight" is in this for them. That is pretty slanderous.
Speaking of sensationalistic, Achebe, Christian evangelists who seem to delight in the death of thousands? That was a joke, right? You may not agree with some of what was said by guys like Falwell, and I'm certainly not an apologist for them, but do you really think they took delight in the deaths of these people? I believe that's a gross mischaracterization. More than that, I believe that's what is at the root of many of the problems in our world today (including much of what has happened recently). You don't have to agree with them, but please don't overstate the case and fan the flames of hatred anymore than they've already been.
Achebe, The muslim world is divided at this point. While there are a great deal of muslims who actually respect peace, don't particularly hate the West, aren't ecstatic about what happened, etc. there are many others who will gladly strap on a bomb and rush to the nearest building where there are Americans as soon as the first Taliban fighter dies. I think it's safe to say that the majority of muslims are peaceful, but there is still an alarmingly large number of them who are not. The only way I can see to prevent a general uprising in the muslim world against the West (US in particular) is to coordinate with our "allies" in the muslim world - get them to stamp out such enthusiasm in their own populations. As for those muslims here who are happy about what happened, are constantly espousing hatred of the US, support for terrorists - you know who you are - I have no problem with incarcerating them indefinitely as a security precaustion... As for those Iranians and others who dance around burning American flags and chanting "Death to America", I say to them just keep doing what you're doing. Your turn will come. (Interesting item: in the Tehran airport, there is apparently a large plaza with a fountain in the center; around the fountain, tiled in the floor, are the words "Death to America"... I think it'll make a good aiming point one day.)
I thought Islam was a pacifist religion? I'm confused. Either way, I think it's 50/50. Half are "with us", half are "against us."
Achebe, discount the mass media (even the non Fox news). If you're seeking the real facts about Muslims and Arabs opinions of us. The vast majority strongly disagree with our pro-Israel foreign policy which encourages the hardline religious fanatics in Israel and paradoxically among the Palestinians. However, as you accurately state the vast majority are not terrorists or active terrorist supporters. To find accurate assessments you'll have to avoid the large scale mass media for the moment. When its a 80% to 90% pro war split the media go with the flow and pile on. They don't want to go against overwhelming popular opinion or seem unpatriotic. It's bad for business. I saw it with the Gulf War. Initially it was about 50/50 support. Many talking heads pro and con as to what to do about Iraq. Respectable spokespersons for sanctions, for bombing, for ground forces etc. Then focus polls showed they were better off emphasizing the "weapons of mass distruction " angle and saying Iraq was a direct threat military threat to the US. That got the 80%, which a war for oil and a war to liberate the emirate of Kuwait could not accomplish. Nearly all differing opinions were removed from the air waves once the decision was made to start the major buidup and give a deadline. Once things are resolved a bit more from a military point of view you'll start seeing more balanced coverage by the mass media of the Arabs and Muslims, perhaps even on Fox also.
Achebe, one more thing. I have many Jewish friends. quite intelligent and humanitarian in many ways, supporters of human and civil rights around the world generally. However, when pushed on the Jewish -Palestinian problem a surprising number of them will start making remarks about Arabs that certainly sound as irrationally anti-Arab (similar in tone to a racist) as your friends and Muslims I know make about Jews. I think in many cases what appear to be deep seated racial/ethnic hatred is just a reflection of the Israel/Palestininian problem which would largely evaporate if that dispute can be settled.
I've been getting this regular (once every couple of months) spam email from a (self-proclaimed?) Islamic group -- it's been interesting enough that I never tried to stop it. I just got the latest, and here it is:Bismillah ar-Rahmanir ar-Raheem "This is a Message for mankind, in order that they may take heed" [TMQ 14:52] Alliance with America is a great crime forbidden by Islam In the Gulf war against Iraq in 1991 America set up an alliance to enter that war. After this she established what's known as the 'New World Order' as an attempt to impose her dominance over the world. Now America is striving to set up a new international alliance claiming that it is for the fight against terrorism. In reality she aims to develop the 'New World Order' so as to strengthen her hold over the world, especially the Islamic world, which includes the states not under her control in Central Asia and the states which form a threat to her influence like China. We, at this point, are not concerned about looking into who undertook the attack in New York and Washington on 11/9/2001. However we assert that America has directed an allegation against Bin Ladin without providing any evidence. Not one American official dared to say that he had a single evidence or proof against Bin Ladin. All they have claimed is that he is a prime suspect. He has issued a statement categorically denying that he had anything to do with the attack. Likewise, the Taliban government has unequivocally denied that it has anything to do with it. It has demanded evidence for this accusation in order to try him, should it be proven, but America is unable to present any evidence. Furthermore, those who are well informed of the matters, know that the American secret service has infiltrated the Taliban through Pakistan and consequently it has infiltrated the al- Qa'idah organisation led by Bin Ladin. If Bin Ladin was responsible for this attack America would have known about it, especially as such an attack requires a great number of people to execute it and long period of time to prepare for it. We are used to Americas' lies and wilful deception in such situations. In the attack on the FBI building in Oklahoma in 1995 the blame was immediately pointed at the Arabs and Muslims, then a short while afterwards it appeared that the perpetrator was an American. When she destroyed a pharmaceutical factory in Sudan she claimed that it was a weapons factory whilst she knew with certainty that it was a medicine factory. This is because she knows about every issue in Sudan whether it is big or small. She attacked the factory in order to absorb the anger against her at home. After pacifying her own people she apologised to Sudan for the air strike. She did something similar when her planes bombed Libya. Now, one expects that America had known who was behind this attack, but deliberately ignores them and directs the blame in a different direction to realise a number of targets: to appease the public opinion of her people and absorb the anger after the strong shock they felt; to extend her influence in the world, especially in Central Asia; to plunder funds from the states in the world not least from the oil producing states so as to gain twice as much as she lost during the destruction that took place; and to create Islam as an opponent to the Western civilisation so that the followers of this (Islamic) civilisation stay in a constant state of fear. On Friday 14/9/2001 the assistant to the American Secretary of State William Burns summoned the Arab ambassadors and explained the terms of the alliance which his government was forming. They are the following: First, to declare support for the American initiative in a forceful and public manner. Second, to undertake executive steps on the ground such as stopping individuals, closing offices and pursuing the sources of funding. Third, to work with the United States in the field of exchanging intelligence and being prepared to join the operations of the American military response and providing assistance when the American response is decided. The American foreign department distributed a document to a number of Arab and European states, Latin America and states in Asia regarding the general principles Washington will follow in its so-called war against terrorism. It reported that dealing with the Europeans will be classified under 'co-operation'. As for what relates to the Arab group and some Asian states, including Pakistan, that will be classified under 'demands' or orders'. America will not negotiate with these states, rather she will say categorically, "Are you with America or with terrorism?" O Muslims! The Shari'ah obliges you to reject this American demand, which looks down upon you with disdain and contempt. America has no high values so as to lecture you on who you should support and who you should fight. You are the people who have a divine Message. You are the ones who carry the Guidance and Light to mankind. Allah (subhana wa ta ala) has described you with His words (to the nearest meaning): "You are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind; you enjoin the Good (ma'roof) and forbid the Evil (munkar), and you believe in Allah..." [TMQ 3:110] The rules of this Message forbids any aggression against civilian non-combatants. They forbid killing of children, the elderly and non-combatant women even in the battlefield. They forbid the hijacking of civilian aeroplanes carrying innocent civilians and forbid the destruction of homes and offices which contain innocent civilians. All of these actions are types of aggression which Islam forbids and Muslims should not undertake such actions. As for Jihad to fight the enemy who commits aggression against Muslims, usurps their land, plunders their resources and attempts to control them; not only is this a legitimate matter but it is an obligation (fard). It is the highest peak of Islam. Allah (subhana wa ta ala) said (to the nearest meaning): "And make ready against them all you can of power, including steeds of war to put fear into the hearts of the enemy of Allah and your enemy." [TMQ 8:60]. The Messenger of Allah (sallallahu Alaihi Was sallam) said (to the nearest meaning): "The head of the matter is Islam, its pillar is the prayer and its highest peak is Jihad." O Muslims! Shar'a does not permit you to give America anything that she tries to impose upon you, It is not allowed for you to submit to Americas' orders or give any form of assistance to her whether it is security information or facilitates for passage through land, air or regional waters. It is not allowed to give America fixed bases. It is not allowed to co-ordinate or cooperate with her in any military issue. It is not allowed to enter her alliance or seek her friendship because America is an enemy to Islam and the Muslims. He (subhana wa ta ala) said (to the nearest meaning): "O you who believe! Take not My enemies and your enemies as friends, showing affection towards them, while they have disbelieved in what has come to you of the truth." [TMQ 60:1]. Allah (subhana wa ta ala) has alerted us to what they conceal (in their hearts) for Islam and the Muslims. He (subhana wa ta ala) said (to the nearest meaning): "Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse.... Lo! You are the ones who love them but they love you not, and you believe in all the scriptures." [TMQ 3:118]. We have noticed the hatred in the actions of the officials, even in the actions of ordinary people after being incited by the malicious Jews who made them think that Muslims are terrorists. Thus, they began to attack mosques and Muslim women in the streets. As for the president of America, Bush, he has described the war he will launch as a revenge for the attack of 11 September on New York and Washington as: "A crusade". He said this on 16/9/2001. How can America demand that the Muslims join their ranks while their president announces without shame that he will wage a crusade on all Muslims who do not bow before America, and not only on Bin Ladin and Afghanistan. This is humiliation, servitude and absolute control of the future of the peoples. Indeed, this haughtiness and arrogance is what gave rise to the hatred for America in the hearts of people and made them sacrifice their lives in order to harm America and seek revenge on her. America is reaping what she has sown. O Muslims! You are one Ummah. He (subhana wa ta ala) said (to the nearest meaning): "The believers are nothing else than brothers" [TMQ 49:10]. The Messenger of Allah (sallallahu Alaihi Was sallam) said (to the nearest meaning): "The Muslim is the brother of another Muslim, he does not do injustice to him nor desert him." And he (sallallahu Alaihi Was sallam) said (to the nearest meaning): "The Muslim is the brother of another Muslim, he does not oppress him, forsake him nor hate him." He (subhana wa ta ala) said (to the nearest meaning): "The believers to one another are like one solid structure where one part strengthens another." And he (sallallahu Alaihi Was sallam) said (to the nearest meaning): "The similitude of the believers in their mutual love, compassion and sympathy is like that of a body: when one part hurts then the rest of the body calls out in sleeplessness and fever." And he (sallallahu Alaihi Was sallam) said (to the nearest meaning): "The blood of the Muslims is one. The nearest as well as the furthest of them gives pledge of protection (to anyone) in their name. And they are one hand against the rest." The Messenger of Allah (sallallahu Alaihi Was sallam) wrote the constitution of Madinah shortly after the Hijrah which describes the state of the Muslims: "They are one Ummah to the exclusion of other people...the believers are helpers to each other to the exclusion of other people...the peace of the believers is one, a believer does not make peace excluding another believer in (the process of) fighting in the path of Allah." There we see America mobilising her garbage, setting up her alliance, making her preparations, and issuing her ultimatum to Afghanistan wishing unjustly and aggressively to humiliate her. She threatens all the Muslim lands and warns that her war will continue for many years. Your rulers, O Muslims, are agents and cowards who have neglected their Deen, lost their dignity and began to behave like slaves before the haughty America. There is no hope left in them. So will you allow these rulers to enter the American alliance and take you with them, to kill your Muslim brothers? Will you leave your rulers to permit America to use your airports, seaports, land and airspace so as to take off for the occupation of a Muslim land? Do you allow them to turn your army into slaves used by America to kill your believing brothers? By Allah, the action of those rulers is indeed an abominable crime which is one of the biggest crimes. It is by Allah a great shame and great sin upon you if you allow them to execute for America whatever she wishes. The immediate and rapid action, which you are obliged to do, is to prevent the rulers from opening the doors to America and forcing them to expel America from the Muslim lands. As for the radical work which will solve the problems of the Islamic Ummah, it is the establishment of the righteous Khilafah which will unite the Islamic lands and peoples in one state and convey the Message of Islam to the rest of the world. He (subhana wa ta ala) said (to the nearest meaning): "And hold fast, all of you together, to the rope of Allah, and do not be divided." [TMQ 3:103]. So if you, O Muslims, were one Ummah under the banner of one Khaleefah, holding onto the Book of Allah and Sunnah of His Messenger (sallallahu Alaihi Was sallam), would then America or any other kufr states have ambitions over you? Would they have the courage to do anything against you or enslave your rulers without taking any account of you? By Allah, no! So rise up towards the radical work which will save your Ummah and the whole world. He (subhana wa ta ala) said (to the nearest meaning): "Allah is with you, and will never decrease the reward of your good deeds." [TMQ 47:35].
(and here's the bottom) Hizb ut-Tahrir 1 Rajab al-Haraam 1422 18/9/2001 (TMQ: Translation of the Meaning of Quran) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >From The Media Office Of Hizb-ut-Tahrir
hahahah wheeeeeeee this is from hizb ut tahreer those are a bunch of r****d muslims that are like bin laden, not only do they have those crazy terrorist ideas but they also reject a lot of basic fundamentals of our faith http://www.allaahuakbar.net/index1.htm there's a link on the right side for these hizb ut tahreer guys.... most of its more indepth islamic stuff most non muslims might not understand, but anyway, bottom line, hizb ut tahreer = stupid.
Extremists come in all shapes, sizes and religions. There are gay people who say AIDS is just hype designed to bolster drug company profits. There are members of the neo-Nazi's who believe that all Jews and non-whites should be wiped off the face of the planet - all in the name of Jesus. If you take ANY belief, faith, ideology, political opinion, etc and push it to its furthest extreme, you get people doing stupid things in the name of whatever cause it is they believe in. Hell, it has been fairly well documented that the $160 million raised by Live Aid and other causes for Ethiopean hunger did nothing for hunger but did a great deal to fund the causes of both sides of the civil war there. Extreme people do extreme things, whether they are Muslim, Christian, atheist, white, black, whatever.
This is what most Muslims who do not tend to agree with America dislike. They don't agree with the "with us or with the terrorists" approach. Given they abhor the acts just as much as any white man who drives a truck and lives in Kansas might but they also don't think that the only acts of terrorism are those against America. They believe the sanctions of Iraq, Sudan, Libya and Afghanistan are terrorism. They believe the Western support for corrupt oppressive regimes of Algeria, Morocco, Tunis, Egypt, Jordan, Turkey, and Saudi Arabia is just like what Americans might consider the Taliban support for Bin Laden. They think the attacks of Russia into the Chechen Republic or the Chinese agression against the self determination of the people living near Central Asia or India against the Kashmir are just as bad as what the West might consider Sudan's 'slavery of the Christians'. And of course the disgraceful support of Israel against Palestine. Now I just want to make one thing clear. Majority of Muslims do not believe America is inherently evil. I live in America, and thankfully I can practice my religion with much more ease here than majority of the 'Muslim' countries. However I do believe our foreign policies have been less fair to the Muslim countries and I hope Muslims in America can get vocal and influence the politicians. Thats the best way to ensure that Muslims abroad are treated fairly. Also I don't think that all Jews are evil simply because I personally know Zionist Jews who are for a state of Palestine and all the demands of the Palestinian organizations (except of course the idiots who believe throwing Jews into the sea is realistic or intelligent). Just search online for Jewish groups who even refuse to recognize Israel as a state and call it just as evil as South African aparthied. Muslims are against Terrorism but their opinion of Terrorism as times is different from the Western viewpoint. Terrorism is what the Turkey government has done to devout Muslims who just simply wish to follow their religion yet Turkey won't let them. Terrorism is what the Egyptian government does to every person with a beard who goes to the mosque regularly. Terrorism is Saudi hostage of "Islam" for their own benefit. Terrorism is Taliban not helping their people by at least seeming a bit more compromising to the outside world. Or Saddam's use of biological weapons to the Kurds. Or Turkey's constant work with Israel to defeat the Kurds. Or Syrian aggression. Or Pakistan's facade of needing a military instead of giving its children education. It's all terrorism just depends which colored glasses you are wear.
Boy: Your post is fatally flawed because you essentially equate negative policy choices with terrorism. A "terrorist" action seeks to change policy through random violence designed to instigate fear in the general populace. Specifically, terrorism is by definition covert and not sanctioned by international law. In the end, all coercive international policy is undertaken with the objective of inflicting an intolerable amount of pain on the opposition. At the point when retaining the disputed policy becomes less viable than "losing" the struggle, the targeted side will relent. That's politics. That will never end. However, we can regulate the manner in which this is conducted. Terrorism has been deemed to fall outside the acceptable limits of this medium. Coercive policies such as sanctions have been deemed acceptable. You are free to disagree with this assessment. But that's a different argument from the one you made. The actions you describe are a mixed bag. Some of what you have written is misleading (Morocco's regime is hardly repressive, even if it isn't democratic), but some of it is true. I happen to agree that our sanctions against Iraq are a mistake. However, it's not terrorism per se, because the method of inflicting pain is drastically different. It's not targeted covertly or by surprise, but rather is an explicit punishment for explicit actions with explicit means of avoiding future punishment. The US has acted, recently, in such a manner that the primary target of attack is the opposing government. Sometimes civilians suffer incidentally. However, the distinction is important. Go ahead and argue, if you wish, that the US acts in a manner that is irresponsible and in some cases wrong. I'll agree with you sometimes. But to call such actions "terrorist" in nature, is foolish.
Whatever the definition of terrorism international law makes...it doesn't matter really since no one listens to UN anyway. Prime Example: UN's declaration against Israel on numerous occasions.
jamma34 wrote: Thanks - I might never have found the material you provided the link to -- I think I'll still keep getting the newsletter, though, if only to look for, um, foreshadowing. As a christian, I like to think I can spot a Jerry Falwell / Jim Bakker / Jim Jones from a mile off, but I've got to admit, properly classifying leaders/groups who claim to be Muslim is eluding me. Easy to say anyone who supports terrorism can't be Muslim, and Muslims love peace and all. I'm trying to draw a line between the two and frankly could use a little help: 1) Salman Rushdie and Gay Jesus playwrite person get Fatwah's pronounced upon them by people I'm told are real Muslims. Cat Stevens (whatever his name is now) wholeheartedly agreed with the death sentence on Rushdie, and I have a hard time putting him in the same group with the WTC attackers. 2) Everyone agrees that Osama bin Laden called for all Muslims to attack and kill American citizens (including women, children, and old people) in the name of Islam. I've heard that this was in direct contradiction to very important principles of Islam -- I'd certainly like to believe that's true. Everyone also agrees that bin Laden runs training camps where people who were raised as Muslims are trained to kill Americans - we've seen videos of all this. 3) There's no Fatwah on Osama bin Laden -- in fact, he's being protected by the Taliban. Are the Taliban real Muslims? I don't know, but the Council of Indonesian Ulemas -- Indonesias Muslim leadership -- seemed to think so when they called for Jihad against the US if we attacked Afghanistan (http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/09/25/ret.indonesia.jihad/index.html) (note: they weren't necessarily calling for violence). Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world, and certainly the Ulemas are true Muslims. So why would the Ulemas call for Jihad against the US if we attack a regime who is protecting a man who has preached decidely un-Islamic things in the name of Islam, and especially when we've just had thousands of people murdered by people who appeared to be practicing what he preached? Achebe's original question remains unanswered for me in the precise sense. Can anyone shed some light?
they call for jihad because regardless of what happens, innocent muslims dont deserve to die, and they have to defend themselves because they're being fought against unjustly, thats jihad. also, US still hasnt given taliban proof that bin laden did it, so far its still speculation. taliban didnt do the attack, bin laden (supposedly) did (even tho he made a bayah [oath] to the taliban that he wouldnt do these things cuz they told him not to), george dubya can get up and yell all he wants about not distinguishing between the harborers and the harbored, but bottom line is, taliban didnt do it, and trying to topple them is unjust and will kill lots of innocent people. i say get the evidence together and try him in the court of a neutral country or a world court or something like that and if he's guilty, he's guilty, give him to the us and let them have fun. regardless, punish the actual perpetrators, not the innocents.
Someone always drives the getaway car (Taliban) and they are no less guilty than the bank robber (Osama). Yeah, a trivial comparison perhaps, but the principles hold up. I hope that bin Laden lives through this mess so that he can live a long suffering life and see his movement renounced.
