Is it safe to say Jose Altuve will be the greatest Astro 2nd baseman of all time?

He was a terrible player that final season.

 

*Final* season? Biggio was very bad four of his final six seasons and the two were he was merely average, he was mostly propped up by abusing the Crawford Boxes.

By statistical measures, Altuve is top 10 - but he's also (hopefully) only played 60-70% of his career. What's harder to categorize, of course, are the postseason accomplishments. He still only has 192 playoff PA - which is about 30% of a single season - but he's obviously been very good and its impossible not to contrast that against Bagwell & Biggio.

 

Just looked at the stats again and you are correct- he had a 666 OPS and played basically the entire year. Very very bad. The year before he had 21 Hr’s and a 730 OPS while playing a shitty second base. That’s probably slightly better than a replacement level player in his second to last year while being terrible in only his final year.

 

3 of his final 6 seasons he had an ops of amidst 800, with the other 3 being 666, 727 and 734. There is no world around where Biggio was “very bad” 4 of his last 6 years. Short of his prior greatness? Of course. And who cares that he got to his numbers by “abusing the Crawford boxes?” He did? He got old and cheated and became a dead pull hitter to compensate for losing a step or 3, but that trade off allowed him to be an average to above average leadoff bitter on a team that went to the NLCS one year, the World Series another year, and basically didn’t hardly a meaningless game for 5 of those 6 years you spoke about.

 

He set a career high in HRs not once but twice during his final six seasons, in which he hit 111 HRs. In the prior six FULL seasons - his prime - he hit 115. He took full advantage of the stadium but was an otherwise well-below MLBer. He posted a sub 100 OPS+ and wRC+ in four of those six seasons. He managed to produce 4.6 bWAR total; he posted 5.1 in just 199 alone. By 2006 and 2007, he was, offensively, Ausmus-like.

His on-base % those final six seasons was .324, down nearly 60 points from his career average to that point (.381). He was slightly above average in '04 & '05.

 

You said he was “very bad” 4 of the last 6 years. That’s what I was responding to. He simply wasn’t very bad. He was above average 2 of the 6 and pretty close to average another 2, clearly below average 1 and his last season was terrible
I said he became a different guy to cheat for his declining skills, but he did enough to not be a liability until the very end of his career.
There was literally only 2 years in his career where he didn’t perform up to the expectations of a MLB player- his rookie year and his final year.

 

Biggio wasn't bad in those years let alone very bad, he just want great. By most measures he was an average starter during that period. And who cares about the Crawford boxes? If it was so easy I'm trying to figure out why only he seemed to master it. And FWIW it was only those last 3 years where he had the terrible/ homer splits, not the final 6.

 

All of this. Nailed it. The revisionism on Bidge (and to a lesser extent) Bagwell career that goes on in some parts of houston is baffling/sad to me.

 

If Biggio had monster postseasons in 98, 99, and '04, would we still hate on him so much for 06 and 07? He clearly wasn't great, or even good, in 06 and 07. But for the sum-total of his career, he's top 10 2B -- all time.

Altuve, in character, is already that good (defensively he's not quite Biggio-in-his-prime). If Altuve goes another five or six years at or near this level, there will be serious comparisons being drawn -- and not to Craig Biggio, either.

 

I mean... we can quibble over degrees - but a sub-100 OPS+ (and three sub-90 OPS+) is... not good. Overall, he posted a 92 OPS+ those final six seasons and 4.6 bWAR, which is... not good.

Those final six seasons cost him: 10 points on his batting average; 18 points on his on-base %; 3 points on his slugging % & his OPS+ dropped from 121 to 112.

He had some minor utility abusing the Crawford Boxes; on the road, he posted a sub-.700 OPS in four of the six seasons, including two sub-600 seasons. And the Astros were hitting him lead-off the whole time while he was posting a .324 OB% - all so he could maximize at-bats to chase 3,000.

Biggio was, in his prime, terrific. I *really* disliked his final six seasons.

 

That’s fine and all but words have meaning. You used your words incredibly poorly. Own up and move on or continue to be wrong.
Biggio was not a “very bad” player for 4 of his final 6 years. That’s just false. If you play a defensive position and you are within 10 percent of overall league average you are doing ok.
Prime Biggio was amazing. Tail end Biggio (if you want to go last 4 years) was sort of an average player. Final year Biggio was a disaster. At no point in time was he very bad for 6 years, and if Altuve plays until he’s 41 or so he’s going to have a year where he’s obviously washed and that’s just fine- if you live the game you should play until you can’t anymore, and there’s no way to know you can’t without trying and failing.

 

In the 2000’s the average OPS+ for a second baseman was.... 93!

So basically your stats that Biggio was at 92 OPS+ over the last 6 years of his career, that you called “very bad” show he was... Average! And that’s dragged down by one horrible year (his last) or his 5 year average he would have been... slightly above average.

If you can’t appreciate an all time great losing peak powers and becoming merely average as his career dies down that’s on you and not on him.

I kind of enjoy seeing a guy having to make adjustments to compensate for what he once was when his peak skill diminish. Not stumbling around the field bad but figuring out a way to help the team and be productive when most mere mortals would have been told they weren’t good enough years before.

Biggio never hurt any team he was playing on with any realistic expectations of competing. That 2007 team that he performed so poorly for was awful and his chase of 3000 and passing dudes on the doubles list a time was the only thing fun about that season.

If he’d have blocked someone good (he didnt) or killed our chances at the playoffs (he didn’t) I’d maybe feel a little bit differently but **** man- he was the cherry on top of a **** year

 

How in the world Biggio got 3 gold gloves (including one with negative dWAR) and Altuve got one gold glove (with a sub 1.0 dWAR) is beyond me... Love them both but Raffy Palmeiro got a gold glove by playing less than 30 games in the field...

 

He should have set the all-time record in HBPs. Altuve is still rather behind on that regard.

 

Yeah man, gold gloves were not awarded well back then. I put just about zero stock in them.
Altuve, much like Biggio, has now reached the stage where he’s average or below average with the glove
Defense is a young mans game at the highest level in MLB.

 

How did their peers compare? I agree--the GG is sometimes awarded to nondeserving recipients (remember when Cruz win it over Hidalgo?). But in the day, for those of us who watched, there was no arguing Biggio's greatness on defense (except his noodle arm). Alomar was probably better, but that's like canning Concepción because Ozzy Smith was better.

 

I will repeat: he posted sub-100 OPS+ in four of his final six seasons; three were sub-90. He was bad. If you want me to walk back "very" - OK. But he was bad. (And very bad the final two seasons... and 2002)

No; he wasn't. He was "sort of average" in '04 & '05 because he hit a bunch of cheap HRs in MMP. But we have definitive ways to measure players - a 100 OPS+ is average: he was below average in 2002, 2003, 2006, 2007. A 100 wRC+ is average; he was below average in 2002, 2006, 2007 and exactly average in 2003. He posted a sub .325 wOBA in 2002, 2006 and 2007.

 

Eh..... Look, I really liked Biggio as a player but... he ran Jeff Kent off after 2004 because he wanted to play 2B again (and McClane did any/everything Biggio wanted). How much would you give to go back and put Jeff Kent into that '05 line-up? And one day, if you get the chance, ask Chris Burke about Biggio.... maybe it never happens for Burke but Biggio wielded his considerable clout with McClane and essentially got whatever he wanted those final three seasons and Burke was certainly collateral damage. Biggio totaled 818 PAs as a lead-off hitter in 2006-2007 *despite* posting a .296 OB% - and those '06 Astros finished 1.5 games out of first place.

Those final six seasons were bad - and worse, they were bad because Biggio placed his individual accomplishment above the team. And that's not bitter hindsight; it's well-known and traveled within the Astros organization.

 

I blame Beltran for 2005... that money could have been used for Kent, and Kent played 3B as well... I do forgive Beltran after 2017...

 

I don't understand what Beltran had to do with Kent - Biggio was the push behind Kent leaving.