Is it ok to propagate that women are inferior/wicked?

YOU are the one using apples and oranges..

You're grouping ALL Islamic terrorist events versus abortion clinic bombings?

You have to realize that Islam came way after Christianity. Islam is going through a starge that Christianity has already been through. Something like a "dark ages" thing.

Right now it's abortion clinic bombings, but that's only because Christianity has been through everything having been established way before Islam.

 

By saying that they flew planes into the building because people are supposedly oppressed, you are justifying what they did to an extent because you create a cause and effect relationship, as if it was a valid reason to fly a plane into a building because someone is supposedly oppressed.

 

Here's what you have to show, though, Sane:

Christianity...the message of Jesus Christ...runs so completely against what was done in the crusades and the inquistiions, that if it weren't so tragic, it would be laughable.

the church became the government...and only the educatied could read. in an attempt to conquer new lands, you had church leaders telling lies to their people about what Jesus had to say in the Bible. literally made crap up. "Jesus wants you to spill their blood in the Temple...and it says so right here!!" So a bunch of "believers" go rushing into Jerusalem and slaughter the Jews in a temple...wading in their blood and celebrating Jesus Christ. the same Jesus Christ who said, "love your enemies." I wonder if those people even knew Jesus said that??

What you need to be able to show...what Islam needs to be able to show...is that this is the problem. That the Koran itself does not call for this kind of violence. That it doesn't say things like, "all infidels should be put to death, etc." That the teachings, in and of themselves, don't call for that sort of thing. That the problem can be blamed on clerics who are abusing power and who, like the church leaders of the Dark Ages, are saying, "uhhh...yeah...the Koran says.....give me more money....yeah...and go kill that guy!!! woo hoo!!!" If the Koran actually says that...we have a problem. If it doesn't...then the problem is not a Muslim problem...it's a humanity problem.

Make sense?? Or am I rambling again?

 

Here's what these terrorists believe:

America is behind Israel. Basically, Israel is occupying Palestine with America's support. Aside from that, they just demolished Iraq, and now have all the oil they need (no conspiracy there).

So basically, according to these people, America is just gaining some strategic position in the Middle East....

Now, you have some guy in Palestine, who has been growing up in poverty in some etnt.... Someone tells him, you can have all the wonders of the world if you help us to destroy these "Americans" who are doing so and so in Palestine and Iraq.

The boy's eyes light up. He sees light for the first time in his life. "Could it be?? I've been suffering so long, this is my calling. I can have eternal happiness and help the world." I have no idea what's really going on since I have no knowledge of the actual Western world.... I don't know what the Israelis are going through, I've been busy trying to survive...

A few days later "Allah-U-Akbar". Kaboom.

Opressed people, reagrdless of who's opressing them, are vulnerable. I'm not talking out of my ass. I know people who almost went this route and I had to save one of them from their own stupidity. I'm not telling you what CNN showed me, I'm telling you what I've seen.

 

Can you blame someone with a mental condition for their actions?

 

It makes perfect sense Max.

But how does someone explain such stuff when people go around telling people that the Koran says "death to the infidels"? When they don't speak Arabic, and dont' even know what "infidels" really means in there.

Everyone can get their hands on the Koran, and I don't need to explain myself to anyone.

HOWEVER, I dare anyone to find me a line in the Qura'an that justifies any terrorist attacks - suicide bombings, WTC, anything...

ANYONE, I dare you, right here right now. There is nothing in the Qura'an that justifies terrorism. Absolutely nothing.

 

Honestly, I'm not sure the burden is on the rest of the world to show that, Sane.

As you say, none of us speak Arabic...or read it for that matter. So even if "everyone can get their hands on the Koran", if you're telling us it's an imperfect translation...well...then how can we know?

There seems to be real debate, even between Muslims, as to what infidels are. You yourself said you're not sure if I'm not an infidel, because I'm on this side, chronologically, of Mohammed's revelation...so I no longer am one of the People of the Book, as a Christian. So that leaves me as an infidel. And my reading of an English translation of the Koran means things don't work out well for me...that I'm an enemy to all Muslims in this world.

That uncertainty...mixed with fear...leads people to jump to conclusions about Islam...even if those conclusions are faulty.

 

terror=fear
terrorism=practice of using fear tactics

What causes fear? Does war? Does the rhetoric of war? Do threats of war on entire people groups cause fear or terror?

That SPAWNS terror, and encourages terrorism.

Prove me wrong.

A link with some of the questions I have perhaps more eloquently placed toward Muslims.

 

Because, unlike you, I do not let some ragged old book written by man define my actions.

I, unlike you, think for myself.


DD

 

This is the first SANE post you have had.

Poverty is the problem, but militant Islam is the vehicle, education is the answer.

FREE EDUCATION, and NOT religious education, but REAL education not tainted by religion or government sponsored religion.



DD

 

Cool. Is your signature a "creationist" question?

 

Nah, just a little poking fun.

DD

 

Arrrgh...so what is responsible for their actions, the mental condition or the supposed "oppression"?

 

I am sure that their mental conditions, and their poverty are caused by Allah, right Sane?

I mean, he is all powerful, or is he?

Maybe, just maybe, he wants people to think for themselves and solve their own problems.

I find it VERY hard to believe that GOD/ALLAH would ask anyone to blow themselves up to reach heaven.

Of course, that is what the Clerics are telling them to do.....man, the Militant Muslim faith is just loaded with do gooders.

SHEESH !!!!

DD

 

The quote you show claiming it spawns terror...

The way I've heard it, that is actually saying that the "People of the Book" who are not Muslims will be in a state of purgatory when they die. They won't immediately go to Heaven until they acknowledge that Muhammed is a messenger of God. It's not a call in this life.

The second quote falls along the same lines. Again, it doesn't say for humans to "destroy" anything - it's ultimately up to God. Tell me how that is different from the descriptions of Hell in Judeo-Christian tradition.

MadMax - the "People of the Book" chronology question - I've never heard it described the way Sane does. A more general way of describing the "People of the Book" in some sects is "those who believe in the one God", i.e., those who are monotheistic. This has no time limit.

That relates back to the above - the concept of purgatory for those who are monotheistic, but not Muslim.

 

the way you explain it is the way i understood it to be, too.

 

Why would God/Allah want people to accept that Muhammed was a messenger of God?? Wouldnt God want man to accept God for what He is? The all powerful being that created and loved us? Honestly to me, it sounds like Muhammed perverted the teachings of Christianity so that man would worship Muhammed. I think Muhammed went on a power trip and decided that he was God or God's equal. Why else would he say that for "People of the Book" have to accept Muhammed as a messenger of God before they go to Heaven?? I'm not being disrespectful, I'm just stating my opinion.

Here is another question. What are the requirements for a Muslim to get to Heaven?

 

Well said, and something that can not be answered by the Q'ran, or any religion.

Specifically the Muslim religion.

 

Ahh, yes, this is the move into theology in general, isn't it? I ask the same questions of Christianity - why would God not be happy enough if we acknowledge His existence and praise Him and attempt to live a pious life? Why does one have to acknowledge Jesus as savior?

Every religion has something that gets in the way of acknowledging God and God alone. (MadMax, I assume, will disagree from a Christian viewpoint, and that's cool).

As for Muhammed being on a power trip... I don't know what to tell you regarding this, except that one of the key teachings you'll hear anyone say is that during Muhammed's funeral, one of the key elders stated, "Those of you who worship Muhammed, know that he is dead. Those of you worship God, know that he is always here." Or something like that.

The questions you ask Master Baiter, are ones I think anyone asks at one time or another regarding faith. Any faith. If you don't, you're following blindly. Different answers come to different people.

I ultimately can't say what God wants. I dunno. I can't even say for sure He exists, in the end. I have no proof. Oh well.

 

Key difference: We acknowledge Jesus as God. As part of the trinity. He's not merely a prophet to Christians. He's God in the flesh...incarnate.

Mohammed is a prophet..Muslims don't believe him to be God. I too don't understand why an acknowledgement of him as prophet would be necessary, but I'm not an Islamic theologian, either. Does Allah require that same acknowledgement of Jesus as a prophet? Or Moses? before entering salvation?

please don't take these as mean-spirited questions..i'm genuinely curious.