I couldn't agree more HayesStreet. It is amazing how the vast majority of peoples forget their families once arrived here (illegally or legally) with nothing but a work ethic and a mostly open economic society. Many of them took jobs in steel mills, coal mines and other dangerous or grueling hard labor jobs that others already here were not willing to do for the wages, just as illegals do today. BTW I am not a legal scholar but I am pretty sure the Constitution does not differentiate the rights of legal or illegal citizens who happen to be in our country—if you are one to weight what that document says as reflecting what is fundamentally American.
OK, and then it is also downright unAmerican to allow speeders, people who engage in sodomy in many states, and jaywalkers to break the law too. Lets deport (if they are illegal) or put in jail (if they are legal) all these American lawbreakers, seeing as how we are a "nation of laws".
Don't be flippant. The laws are very clear that if you are in this country illegally you are to be deported. The fact that we have been lax in enforcing the law does not change what the law is. Good to know that you don't believe in enforcing the laws and calling the words stated by many political observers from the early days of this country to the present day ignorant. I suggest you take remedial civics. Actually this is where you are wrong. There is Supreme Court case law which suggests a sliding scale. Legal permanent residents are due less process under the Constitution than are citizens. Illegal immigrants are afforded MUCH less due process than are LPRs.
I am pro-Immigrants and pro-immigration, but I did what appeared to be 'major' studies that claimed that the cost was higher than the benefit.
Originally posted by F.D. Khan Cohen, You are correct, I meant do not pay personal income taxes, but when they consume will pay sales taxes, etc. For the ones on paychecks, they do have withholdings, right? And they also will not recieve some benefits like social security and welfare. But the benefits they do recieve place an burden on society, and increases costs for everyone. ... I don't know which way the scale dips, but this inexpensive, quality labor force keeps food and construction prices way down for all of us. I feel gratitude for their hard work. I don't think that the governments could have gotten together and planned it out any better: a. 'We have a lot of inexpensive, skilled labor that needs work' b. 'We have a lot of work that needs skilled labor, and inexpensive would be great. How about we help cover some of their immunizations and emergency medical?' a. 'great, let's go'
I assume you meant you saw major studies...and I would be willing to bet that any such study you could find has an immediately apparent bias. Major studies from both sides of the political spectrum conclude that immigration is on balance beneficial, including illegal immigration. Refman, The problem with lawyers is that while in a courtroom you must only be concerned with the letter of the law, in society the 'Rule of Law' of which you prattle on about only functions when those laws are legitimate and just in the eyes of the people. When they are not they are ignored at first, and eventually done away with altogether. Prohibition was LAW (I'll put it bold so we can all understand how important the LAW is). Jim Crow was LAW. Would you be willing to say anti-Jim Crow is anti-American? I doubt it. Really the 'rule of LAW' slant you put on this begs the question of whether immigration is at the core of American values. Notice the Statue of Liberty does not say 'give me your LAWyers...' LAW (s) change, the contribution and significance of immigrants, legal and illegal, to the rich historical and economic fabric of our society does not. It always has been, as always SHALL (SHALL is kinda a legal word, right?) be so.
I'm just curious but weren't most of the hijackers on 9-11 illegals? Just checking because I think in times like these it is especially crucial to not keep a blind eye to the borders by allowing every Dick, Harry, and Charlie entrance. I believe this would be Anti-American. I'm sorry I just need someone to explain to me how this would be beneficial to America if it continues to make us vulnerable to more attacks.
Damn those illegal immigrants with their "looking for a better life" bull crap, taking those highly sought after picking jobs on farms that have a bevy of benefits, and raising the cost of insurance by riding public transportation. You know, if american businesses used the same standards of safety and pay when building factories and shops in Mexico or anywhere in the world, maybe people wouldn't try so hard to come here. Seriosly, somebody tell me how an illegal immigrant has negatively affected their life. Tell me about the nice coushy desk job you lost to an illegal immigrant? These are the kind of complaints you here from the KKK. I'm not insinuating anything, because it's wrong to put people into categories and assume things about people you don't know personaly. . .
So the basis of my profession is merely something that people who take it seriously prattle on about...nice dude. Hmmm...there are millions who think the laws against peer to peer file sharing are not just. Should we do away with those? I'll bet thousands of artists would disagree. There needs to be control on who is in this country. The immigration laws have been on the books for a really long time. There have been changes and periods of amnesty (mostly because we haven't the manpower to determine who is here in any other way)...but most of the changes have been minor in nature. These laws are legitimate for the reason of knowing who is here...and 9/11 proved that. And some of the more legitimate laws of their time which have endured the period in which they were ignored...jackass. People in great numbers ignore laws all the time...it's why we have prisons. Why the hell do I have to explain such a fundamental concept?
You just contridicted yourself. You place people concerned over the matter in the catagory of the white supremacist and assume these people are racist then you say it is wrong to put people into categories. Well this is offensive because you are basically saying those who are pro-illegals are good and those who are anti-illegals are bad. I don't have a problem with immigration. That is the foundation of this country. But how are we supposed to know if these people are going to abide by the law if they defy it to begin with by illegally entering this country? I'm all for giving everyone an opportunity but its still uncertain who is exactly coming through. Especially in this day and time. But I think whats more scary is the way the media doesn't fairly cover this problem. Most people in this country for the most part are oblivious to the growing problem. And I believe 9-11 basically brought this problem to the forefront but we still don't hear about most of the crimes that caused by illegals thanks to the media. Its much easier to let the problem grow out of control than to act and protect the homeland. I don't agree that people who are concerned that their family could be harmed by illegals whether they be Mexican Americans, Caucasion American, or Muslim American are racists. Perhaps I am over reacting over the events of 9-11 and this one. ----------------- Suspect in Nun's Slaying Arraigned JEFF BARNARD Associated Press Writer KLAMATH FALLS, Ore. (AP) - An itinerant laborer accused of raping two nuns and then strangling one of them with her rosary beads was ordered held without bail Wednesday on 14 charges, including aggravated murder. Maximiliano Esparza sat with an interpreter in the courtroom during the hearing. His court-appointed lawyer, Duane McCabe, did not enter a plea. Esparza also is charged with rape, sodomy, sexual abuse and assault. The 32-year-old man allegedly arrived in Klamath Falls last week by train. Late Saturday, he left the town's only strip club and attacked two nuns as they walked along a canal bike path, authorities said. Both were wearing their blue habits when they were attacked. Sister Helen Lynn Chaska, 53, died. The second nun was treated at a hospital and released. Both are members of the Immaculate Heart of Mary in Bellevue, Wash., an orthodox Catholic order not affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church. They had spent the day at a supermarket parking lot, raising money for their order by selling religious books, statuettes and rosaries. After the attack, Esparza allegedly rode off on a bicycle. Police tracked him to a motel Sunday after getting a tip that someone had recognized him from a composite drawing based on the surviving nun's description. Prosecutor Ed Caleb said he received information from the Immigration and Naturalization Service identifying Esparza as an illegal immigrant who was once deported. His home country was not listed, the prosecutor said. Court papers show Multnomah County issued an arrest warrant in 1993 after Esparza failed to appear in court on a cocaine charge. At Wednesday's hearing, Judge Richard Rambo initially barred photographs of Esparza so that future jurors would not be prejudiced by seeing him in jail clothing and handcuffs. After media objections, Rambo allowed photographs and video of Esparza's face only Credit Philly.Com
As pointed out, there are plenty of laws that are not enforced. The law is clear about Jaywalking, speeding, and sodomy in many states too. Are we "lax in enforcement" and violating "our nation of laws" tenet because we have not started a bedroom police--if you want to be mr. consistency. You can call it flippant, I call it pointing out the obvious-- some laws we may more attention to in regards to enforcement than others. I think my original comment was correct, my point wasn't about what "current Supreme Court case law" upholds. The Constitution I believe in no place states documented (legal) citizens have more more rights than citizens without proper documents. Though not a scholar on it, I also don't recall ever reading about such ideas be presented in the Federalist papers or by other founding fathers like Jefferson either.
Well should we open the floodgates guys? Here guys, this state is called Oklahoma. You can have it? I'm for controlled immigration and I want to qualify that by no means am I an elitist. I feel that if you are an illegal immigrant you should be afforded basic human rights and limited "government rights." Why is there illegal immigration? Because the immigration process is too slow and subjective? We elect the men who make and enforce these policies. If we don't like it, we should voice our concerns and elect politicians who will address these concerns.
Agreed. But I believe most won't enforce in fear they will be called bigots and racists by the progressives, media and any other establishment influenced by the radical left.
Actually, I pointed out how lawyers get blinders on where the 'Rule of Law' is concerned. The idea that laws are sacred BECAUSE they are laws is ridiculous. It is a completely shallow view that does not even do justice to the philosophical backing behind the concept of the 'Rule of Law.' So when you propose that 'its the LAW, man' as if that somehow decides the issue, you are prattling on. Again, respecting laws in general as the will of the people, is a good thing. Following any law merely because it is a law is silly, and your stance is a bastardization of American history. Correct me if I'm wrong, but was it following the LAW to dump tea in Boston harbor, or (gasp) wasn't it treason to sign the Declaration of Independence? Which means jack and ****, and jack left town. Uh, no. Immigration law is constantly in flux, and immigration policy even more so. Last time I checked no 9/11 terrorist came over the Rio Grande, or by any other covert method, so spare us the 5th column hysterical red herring. And laws that require some notification of entry could be totally separate from those that restrict immigration. Actually I went back immediately and erased that part of my message. But since you apparently are too stupid to figure it out, the reason we have an ever growing prison population is because morons like yourself continue to jail people because they violated some outdated, ill conceived, and ill advised law. Laws which a group of our citizenry continue to perpetuate as a means of accumulating wealth at the expense of the tired and the poor and the hungry this country is supposed to be here for. I understand you make your money off of other people's misery, and that you want to protect your own interests. However, when you become an absolutist, and view EVERY issue through that lens, you delegitimize the 'Rule of Law' as surely as if you were a dictator passing LAWS that merely served your own interests, instead of the values that have made this country great.
You ain't bullsh*****g. I have travelled abroad enough to see the benefits of this. Hell, Germans speak better English than their American counterparts.
I agree with TJ, to a large degree. The jobs they do are jobs that nobody else really wants, at least for the price they get paid to do them. Do you like being able to eat out for less than $20 a person? When all the busboys, dishwashers, etc. are shipped away, and other kids take those jobs, they won't do them for the same price. Wages will have increase in all kinds of areas. Migrant workers will make more, so produce is going to up in price too. The cost of living in this country is actually kept down by illegal immigrants.
I hope the rest of you noticed that my "contradicting" myself was done on purpose. I thought it was pretty obvious. I even put one of the winking smileys in as a visual aid. And you are over reacting because you see that story and you're assuming that the reason he raped those nuns and murdered one, was because he was an illegal. There are more people who are legal citizens commiting those types of grizzly acts than illegals, should we start locking up everybody in the country out of supsicion? Damn, I'm getting scared just thinking about it. Stay away from me you other legal americans, people like you are guilty of henious crimes. Any one of you could the next Timothy Mcviegh or the next Unibomber. I'll bet all of you a dollar that this sniper in Maryland is a legal citizen, I say we arrest anybody who knows how to use a high powered hunting rifle.
From an employment standpoint illegals and other immigrants will do jobs that most Americans will not, the same pay scale benefit most companies use with NAFTA. The benefit would be if we allowed these individuals in legally, but eliminated floor pricing of work like the minimum wage. As much of a benefit as they are to the economy in filling the needs of this labor, imagine the increase in tax funds if they were legal and were still able to work for those wages?? I'm very much for looser immigration policies and stricter control over the illegal ones. Many complain about them taking jobs, but most of the jobs taken by first generation "legal or illegal" immigrants are jobs that Citizens stay away from, and the unemployment rate that most are complaining about rising currently is ironically better for the economy contrary to what most media outlets would have you imagine. This is due to an equalibrium point being at around 5% or higher. This % is beneficial because their is a steady job market creating increased worker productivity and lower turnover while still limiting the negative effects of unemployment in the economy. As a whole, I understand that illegal immigrants have filled holes, but entering in the proper channel's (if those channels were made easier to enter) would make it a win-win situation.
