If Bolton testimony is blocked, our democracy has ended.

Bolton probably looks at Trump’s replacement and would rather have him in charge, especially after being embarassed. There are quite a few old-school Republicans who would love to steer the party back from Trump and Bolton fits the profile. Doubt he’s concerned about the Dems at all.

 

We will see on Nov 4th which strategy would have worked better. Im not sure if the average american can handle another 8 years of Trump fatigue from the obsessed.

 

The 80% of republicans that vote for trump... And it appears I didn't misconstrue your post.

 

Why does it matter who said it? If a dimwit said it, would you find it less true? The issue with you hardliners is you all stick your head in an echo chamber and actually think you're more intelligent for it. You're not. Any tool can spend their life finding commonality on almost any subject imagined. There is no intelligence in mindlessly retweeting this dribble.

Just look at the thread title. "...our Democracy has just ended" Its not like our country went through a great civil war which resulted in one side completely razing the opposing force cities to the ground, where to this day it still shows. But yet you hardliners cheer on with your tiresome tropes. The moment you all disagree with a nuance, out comes the attacks even though you all still share the same end goal. Do you really think witless banter like "defend the twit in chief" or "Trump apologist" is actually productive? Reading some of these responses from you hardliners makes me feel like Im back in grade school.

 

The Trump has no clothes

 

Yeah let’s have the voters decide. Why impeach the president you are right unless of course the president tried to have one of the top opponents investigated. How can you honestly sit there and say that?

 

If you want to criticize those here who yes... might be a bit hyperbolic, then fine, but at least engage their concerns with an attitude that isn't yourself all high and mighty. People have concerns. I happen to feel that it's legitimately coming from a place of reality that needs to be addressed. I personally find you snub your nose and instead of addressing the concerns you make it seems as though the people with concerns are the real problem... which they are not.

Look... is it really that hard for Trump to become a dictator and reverse many of the freedoms we have enjoyed over the Past few hundred years, and the expanded rights we have seen in the past 20 or so??.... Yes and No. I don't think there is a way to both overstate and understate what Trump can do with a few simple oversteps of his power.

Take for instance the November election:

Is it really that hard to conceive of him issuing an Executive Order after losing the election to put on pause the inauguration? Of course not... he has the power to do that. Now the real question which is the subject here IMO is what happens after that. How is his power either upheld or struck down? Addressing those concern relies on us looking at the institutions we are relying on to take that Executive Order and shove it up his you know what-

Those institutions are:
-The Supreme Court (5-4 in Trump's favor obviously... and have ruled in his favor even in controversial EO's like the travel ban, have upheld partisan GOP gerrymandering, etc.)
-The DOJ - Bill Barr.... anyone really trust he will do the right thing here, and not play along with a sham investigation into the Nov Election after Trump says it's illegitimate?
-Then there is the Senate- The primary subject of the OP- What in the impeachment trial has told you that this is an institution that will hold Trump accountable if he oversteps his authority again? What tells you that after they give up their power in impeachment and are a rubber stamp for his criminality, that they'll then during the election decide it's time to take back their power?

Now if Trump issues an EO and the Republican held institutions fall in line does that mean Trump is now officially a dictator? No way. There will be hell to pay with the general public who will overwhelmingly not support Trump's play to overturn the election to stay in power. He doesn't have the wits or the goodwill to pull that off. It'll be a mess. However... is he going to do it?... IMO it's a high probability.... Do we know exactly how it will shake out??... No. Do I think the Dems, independents, etc. are prepared for what we all know he's going to do??.... No... not at all IMO.

We have to be able to discuss this without letting folks like yourself let us think we are just a bunch of cooky libtards. We are not in this case... this situation actually has a high probability of happening, and you know it. You also know that we can no longer rely on Republican held institutions to do the right thing even in the case of Trump issuing an EO after the election. What the "wrong thing" is at that time might not be so black and white. It might look reasonable to say the Chief Justice is perhaps doing the right thing to allow the White House EO to stay while Bill Barr's DOJ does an investigation of the election... Just to make sure.

I think you are right to say... maybe the "hardliners" are too over the top... that's fair. What's not fair is not actually discussing the situation of concern with a real objective rebuddle instead of acting like a pompous A Hole all the time.

 

retrumplicans must be reading tea leaves and trying to limit the damage that bolton testimony might bring... so they want to read his book in a secret basement...

 

But at the same time...

 

it only matters (i)who said it because the subject is about the law and the person is a lawyer and professor/teacher at the highest level, (ii) you dismissed it out of hand, as nonsense, without a scintilla of information to guide your thought, except to reflectively dismiss something that runs contrary to Trumpworld.

And that's the largest harm that Trump has caused in this country -- his rhetoric has intentionally inflamed tribalism, to such a degree that people stop thinking, stop being intellectually honest, bend or break normal standards of decency or whatever ...because truth, information, legitimacy don't matter anymore.

I personally don't live in an echo chamber. I click on the fox app then the CNN app. I want to hear both sides of the spectrum. I live in a world where truth, information, intellectual honesty should still matter, and am categorically opposed to people who refuse to be informed, casually dismiss thoughts and information because it is critical of one side, either side, and basically subscribe to tribalism.

A mature, reasoned response to my posts would have been: Cool, thanks man. I'm not a lawyer, so this whole thing about waiver sounded crazy, but it sounds like maybe there's something to it. .

 

I think I'm more interested in flipping the Senate than I am in the presidency. Presidency is probably more attainable, but I think it's helpful to put all the enablers on record for their impeachment vote. Even better if McConnell succeeds in blocking all witnesses. It might not help in 2020, but as the Trump presidency fades in the rearview mirror, people are going to be able to consider his legacy in a more objective way. And the folks that acquitted won't be fondly considered.

Aside from that, I do think the failed impeachment does advance the ball on the 2020 election because:

(1) To do nothing feeds the narrative that both sides are amoral and only interested in power, which is demoralizing to liberal voters and could depress their turnout,
(2) Liberal demographics that traditionally have lower turnouts may be more energized to go vote to combat a perceived present threat,
(3) While the impeachment will galvanize hardcore Trumpers to vote to defend Trump, the voter on the edge of Trump's sphere may be marginally less likely to turn out for him because of FUD that has been injected by the controversy, which would weaken his incumbency advantage, and
(4) It crowds out Trump's feel-good stories about the economy, trade deals, how we'll oppress the Palestinians, etc.

I don't think that's much changed. He's still far too belligerent on foreign policy for my taste. And, the way he's gone about dropping his bombshell on Trump seems pretty self-serving. But, he's a self-serving belligerent with some moral scruples, apparently. Even if he succeeds in this take-down, I still don't want him in government in any capacity.

You win on the privilege argument. But you misconstrue Space Ghost's position. He's not a Trumper. He's in a realpolitik camp that says you shouldn't waste time with high-minded ideals that aren't going to win. He's focused on Trump's electoral defeat as the path forward.

 

You win on the privilege argument. But you misconstrue Space Ghost's position. He's not a Trumper. He's in a realpolitik camp that says you shouldn't waste time with high-minded ideals that aren't going to win. He's focused on Trump's electoral defeat as the path forward.[/QUOTE]

JV - I checked out of D&D for a while so, thanks for the scoop.

I shall do as I say...

@Space Ghost I apologize. I'm should have read more of your posts. Irrespective of being right on the substance of our discussion, dumbassery on my part to assume you are a trump apologist.

 

January 28, 2020 - 75% Of Voters Say Allow Witnesses In Senate Impeachment Trial, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; 53% Say President Trump Not Telling Truth About Ukraine

https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=3654

 

McConnel is admitting that there are enough votes to call witnesses. The latest argument though coming out of several in the GOP is that having Bolton testify won't change things because everyone knows what Trump did and they accept that Trump did withold aid for an investigation into the Bidens but that it isn't impeachable:
"
A growing number of GOP senators are now acknowledging that President Trump may have leveraged US military aid to Ukraine in exchange for an announcement of investigations that could help him politically – but they contend that even that conduct does not warrant removal from office or hearing from additional witnesses.

What they are saying now: Republicans are now arguing that the latest reports — that former national security adviser John Bolton’s book manuscript reveals that Trump told him in August that he was withholding $391 million in aid until Ukraine announced a probe into the Bidens – are likely true but simply confirm what is already known.

And they are saying those new facts, first revealed by the New York Times, are consistent with the details laid out by House Democratic managers in their case that Trump used official acts to urge a foreign power to undercut a leading political rival in the 2020 presidential campaign.

But they say that nothing in there is impeachable — nor does it warrant the need to hear from new witnesses since it confirms what is already known, they say. "
https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-impeachment-trial-01-28-20/index.html

 

We might never know as there are much more than impeachment occurring since the start of it and to nov 4th.

As I said before, no one has a crystal ball. Just do the right thing and let it be.

Personally I think it will be harmful to not just Trump but the GOP everywhere else.

 

I swear, if they could have had this stance earlier, we could have probably just had a 99-1 censure vote (Rand votes nay), and put the stupid stunt to bed.

so too if trump had ever said: “oops. Rookie mistake, my bad. Won’t happen again.” Not in his DNA though.

 

If Bolton testifies the ratings would be through the roof.