bigboy, Pretty narrow minded analogy IMO. If the vast majority of stock brokers thought the mutual fund was still very good, then to complain about picking it 3 years after the fact, is indeed hindsight. The odds were in our favor before the season started, and more people than not, agreed with that. To critisize the moves after the team has fallen on its face, is indeed, hindsight. In fact, if we were in first place right now, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
i know bigboy...despite the fact you've admitted you thought this team was a playoff team...you also impossibly knew it would suck and be in last place. hindsight. and yes...the marlins have been cellar dwellers for most of the years of their existence. they rose up twice...and i rooted for them like crazy both times. they had things break their way both years, and they took advantage and won. awesome. but the astros have been in the race for the last 10 years virtually every year but 2 or 3. i tend to judge a summer by how quickly my team is out of the race. having a team fall down in april is like not having a team at all that year.
Good post bigboy, I'd also like to add that these players, Bagwell, Biggio, and Berkman, have a weak mentality. They've proven time, and time again that they will fold when the slightest bit of pressure is applied. When things are not going their way they get down on themselves. It seems as if they have a roll over and die attitude which usually will result in long slumps. I know that I wasn't very specific in this post but I just didn't feel like typing it all out. But generally speaking, I think this trait is clearly visable.
yeah...despite moving two positions in the same year...the year after being moved from a middle infield spot to an outfield spot he's not well suited for...biggio has shown his roll over and die attitude at the plate all season long. weak mentality. whatever. bagwell is hurt, gunn. he's underperforming, but it's directly attributable to an injury.
I understand that Bags and Biggio are team guys. I know that Biggio has sacrificed for the team in moving positions several times. I know they are getting old and Bags is hurt. I still think he is right in saying they are weak mentally. When have they ever performed against good pitching? the playoffs? when we were tied for first last year? They are great Astros players but you can never ever say they were clutch when it truly counted. I dont care about how they were the Comeback Kids and won 102 games. I dont care about how they got us to the playoffs and won division titles. I want a playoff win. I want a World Series berth. They have never done this because they fold when it is time to be superstars and carry a team.
there's no doubt they haven't won in the playoffs. but baseball isn't like the other sports. we don't judge players' careers in baseball solely by what they did in the playoffs. you're talking about judging a career by about a grand total of 30 something AB's. that's ridiculous when you consider these guys have been playing around 14 years each. if we do the same for guys like ted williams, we don't like the math much. my point is, looking at these guys this season and writing off their performance to "mental weakness" is ridiculous. first of all...even if you're right about them....it isn't the playoffs!!! it's the regular season. and bags has been a monster in the regular season for his entire career. except of course...like now...when he's injured. what signs of mental weakness has biggio shown this year??? yeah, he's fielding a position he's not well suited for. but are you seeing the effects of that at the plate?? i suppose i'm more of a realist in baseball. i see a league where, until just recently, the same teams win every stinking year. and they're usually teams with payrolls that nearly double ours. regular season success actually means something in baseball...to win a division is actually a coveted accomplishment, and not an after-thought. i grew up with an astros team that was in receivership...that won the division 2 times prior in its entire history. and in the past 10 years, they've won 4 division championships. forgive me for cutting these guys some slack for putting up HOF or close to HOF type numbers and leading this franchise to the best years of its history.
I agree to some extent...but these guys (Bags, Biggio) have been our leaders for some time now. We have surrounded them with more than ample talent on several occasions. I don't put the blame squarely on them but if you look at sports history in general, those 2 don't measure up to other guys who have been tabbed 'leaders'...especially when the games really count.
i don't disagree with that. i just think you can go overboard on that....again, that means you say the same thing about a guy like Ted Williams...and you make guys like Jim Leyrtiz into HOF players. i can not discount 440 career HR's or 50 doubles/50 steals because of limited playoff AB's.
No question these guys have given us as much if not more than a lot of other guys who have played on championship teams. I'm just looking at it from a frustrated fan standpoint and saying "ok...we got you guys RJ and no one could hit the Padres (although Brown was like the second coming of mike scott that yr)...we had alou backing you up...carl everett (who had a great season) there for you...then Jeff Kent....then Roger and Andy with a Beltran kicker. Again...its not like Kent is in his prime either and Ensberg only took 3 months to hit the damn ball but its just frustrating. I think Bags and Biggio are definite HOF'ers...no question...but it would be nice to watch some games in October.
i agree. but keep in mind, moises didn't hit in the playoffs, either. kent has been disappointing this season as well. carl everett didn't hit in the playoffs, either. it wasn't like the whole lineup was going gangbusters in the playoffs, and bags and bidge were the only ones falling down. actually...bagwell had a pretty good series against the braves in 2001. batted over .300 for that series, if i remember right.
We have had several teams that could have at least made a decent playoff run and we have had two teams built for a World Series run. I am a homer. I love the Astros. I want nothing but the best for our guys. That doesnt take away from the fact that Bags and Biggio (and other Astros as well) have never ever hit good pitching. Regular season or playoffs. We would kill lesser teams. We would come back against lesser pitching. When it came down to the nut cutting, they never have gotten it done. I dont have stats but I would love to see numbers on how they have faired against good pitching. I would bet money that they sucked it up. I've watched enough Astros baseball. I've had season tickets. I've been to the playoff games. I know that these guys have blown it over and over. It made me sick to watch.
averages over time against good pitching are always low...no matter the player. that's why it's called good pitching. if they were killing those guys, it wouldn't be good pitching.
sorry...i don't mean to be that way. but was my point illegitimate? you make a conclusory statement that "these guys NEVER hit good pitching" with no stats to back it up...just on a gut. i'm saying, bagwell has over 400 homers...some of those had to come off good pitches. i'm saying biggio has over 2500 hits, right?? some of those had to come off good pitchers. but it wouldn't surprise any of us to find that every major leaguer performs better against bad pitching than against good pitching. that almost goes without saying. by the way...i have started out my posts agreeing in part...disagreeing in other parts. if i don't agree with you entirely, am i a wall? i just disagree with you. at least in part.
I was kidding. I agree that Bags and Biggio have had some good pitching hits. I agree that Bags and Biggio have had some great clutch performances. I dont believe that this has been consistant. I believe when it truly counts (playoff, playoff berth on the line) they have never done it. No matter how great they are in the regular season they have screwed the pooch when (I believe) it really counts. We have had World Series quality teams. I expected at least one freaking playoff round win. It hasnt happened. I love these guys as Astros. I dont think they have faltered from lack of effort of lack of desire. I have an official Bagwell jersey. My wife has an official Biggio jersey. They are the Astros to us. We love the team. That doesnt take away from the fact that they blew it. Much to my dismay I might add.
Mad Max, You are really something else! Keep on spinning what you want to spin. The reality is this team has too many holes. The people you defend makes you seem like a homer not objective. You mention before that you have been an Astros fan for 30 years and blah blah blah Biggio blah blah. You can keep repeating yourself over and over again. It's simple... You blame the people that have been there the longest, the same ones that keep choking when it counts. The people that have proven over and over again that they are not getting it done. The ones that keep putting a team together that truly does not have a chance.
quick question....would you have relased barry bonds before the giants' world series run against the angels because of poor playoff performance before that? how about ted williams?? thanks in advance. you say i'm spinning...i elect you to serve as GM. clearly you're smarter than gerry. i'm sure you've forgotten more baseball than he ever knew. i'm sure every gm in baseball would have rid themselves of the plague that is jeff bagwell and craig biggio by now. yeah. i'm sure of it.
I'm not saying we should release Bags and Biggio or that they were not our best shot at winning a title. I was not for resigning Biggio on this last contract. Yes he has produced so far this year but I thought we should have gone in a different direction. I still believe that. I think we could have started rebuilding and still compete. Bagwell is another matter. I never thought that his production would fall off this bad. It is unfortunate that his injury has crippled him this bad. I thought that keeping Bags as a veteran presence was the way to go.
Max, you can keep making excuses for Biggio's fielding all you want, but the fact of the matter is he has no business in the field; ANYWHERE! And their weak mentality has nothing to do with moving positions, or injuries. Come on Max.
If Drayton was serious about a WS, he would have bumped the payroll up a few mill, and signed a closer. It would have been just for one year, and he still wouldn't do it.
