Well, I think its very cool that you played against both Isiah and Aguirre. And I certainly can't say anything like that, but no one has ever advocated a reason why you would trade AD and a #1 pick for Aguirre if AD was the leader of the team. His stats were better than Aguirre's and every single report about the trade said it was because AD caused chemistry problems and because Isiah and Aguirre were old friends. To say they did it for Aguirre's passing ability is the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard. Having said that, we should probably move this to a Pistons BBS
gb, the trade sucked and the Bulls had the #4 pick, so no, I don't think that Krause had a good offseason. Elton Brand is better than Tyson Chandler, and will be for some time. Being the worst team in the league means you will get a good draft pick. I guess the best that Krause can be given credit for is putting together suck a crappy team that they are continually able to get top 4 draft picks.
McAdoo went to the Pistons as compensation for signing free agent M.L.Carr. He was not traded, nor was he a "go to" player for the Celtics. John Brown (owner of the Celtics) acquired McAdoo from the Knicks without consulting Red Auerbach or head coach Dave Cowens. McAdoo never fit in with the Celtics. He had nothing to do with the acquisitions of Parrish or McHale.
Your period of good behavior seems to have flamed out in a fit of mindless, pre-adolescent baiting. Let's define years and years as, say, more than two years. We'll start taking you seriously when your namesake is able to hold a job that long.
hayestreet whatever......Dumars was not the vet leader.... case closed dude. Uhhh, Yeah he DID!!!!! Boston got the #1 pick for McAdoo, as it happens. Ummm. they traded that #1 for Parish and the pick for McHale. Why do I bother with lame historians!!!
so does Bob* want to claim an asterix on this http://global.nba.com/history/fin8081.html bob...dude...I am a Dantley....Notre Dame and Celtics fan from Illinois....maybe I should have asterix'd this fact before.....but I was embarrassed to do so!!
You are correct HeyPee, I apologize. What is it they always say?... Memory is the first thing to go? Anywho, here it is: The Celtics had signed Detroit's M. L. Carr as a restricted free agent, and as a result they owed the Pistons compensation. Accordingly, Auerbach offered to "give up" McAdoo for Detroit's two first-round draft picks in 1980. For some reason Detroit agreed. Then the Pistons sweetened the deal by finishing a dreadful last in the NBA for the 1979-80 season, meaning the Celtics had the top pick to go with the 13th selection. Auerbach wanted Kevin McHale, a smooth power forward out of the University of Minnesota, but he and Coach Bill Fitch also wanted veteran center Robert Parish, whom the Golden State Warriors were shopping around the league. The Warriors, who picked third, wanted to draft Joe Barry Carroll out of Purdue and figured they would need the top pick to get him. So Auerbach traded Boston's two picks to Golden State for Parish and the third pick in the draft. As a result, Auerbach and Fitch got the frontcourt of the '80s-Parish at center and McHale at power forward joining Larry Bird at the other forward spot. The Warriors, meanwhile, drafted Carroll first and Rickey Brown 13th. The deal was branded the most lopsided trade ever by 19 NBA general managers in a 1989 poll conducted by The Sporting News. Good 'Ole Dickey Vitale, I knew I liked him for some reason
Oh, and the link I got that from, has a good write up on the '81 Celtics-Rockets Finals. Check it out: http://perso.club-internet.fr/thanathz/nba/finals/final81.htm
<b>gettingbranded:</b> I would definitely say that Chicago's summer was a major success. Getting Curry and Chandler in the draft, unloading Brand, and picking up Robinson, Oakley and Anthony will be viewed as the turning point for you guys. Now, the challenge will be turning all that talent into a team, building chemistry, and find a coach who can teach them how to become champions. With all your youth, you're taking the same kind of risk that we are. They haven't grown up yet, and noone exactly knows how they'll turn out. Time will tell.
My apologies if someone has already pointed this out, but the difference between the Rockets' offseason and the Bulls' offseason is that the Rockets didn't trade their best player to land a "potential superstar." As I said on draft day, the Brand-Chandler trade had a lot more to do with covering Jerry Krause's substantial buttocks than with building a championship team. I lived in Chicago from '94 to '96. Even when the Bulls were winning championships, Krause was a laughingstock, and he's even more of one now. (And if he lives there, gettinbranded knows it, whether he's willing to admit it or not.) Intentionally tanking four consecutive seasons (and counting) to get top-4 lottery picks is the least imaginative, most cowardly, and most fan-insulting way to build a team. Krause should be ****ing ashamed.
would somebody explain to me why Yao Ming is going to change the NBA. he is 7'6" right? ala shawn bradley who is 7'6" shawn has really change the game of basketball and shut down Shaq-daddy repeatedly............of coarse i say this tougue firmly in cheek, but i just don't see this guy (Ming) making that big of an impact right away or for that matter within his first three or four year in the NBA. i could be wrong.
Not that big a difference. Brand is a career 2nd at best, probably third option. Stevie isn't. Your best player is a lot better than our best player was. We gave up less than you would have. He's extremely disliked by the media and thats the perception that has leaked out nationally. But he's garnered some praise with this summers moves and a logical mind can see that he's always had a good workable plan (see below). Except that you're DEAD wrong. Ask yourself: Would Orlando have liked to have had Brand this off-season if they could have gotten him? Krause really expected McGrady and one other player to come to Chicago. Look at the star he is now. With Mcgrady and Jones, Thomas or Hill plus Brand you have a nucleous that can be looked upon to be dangerous for YEARS. That was his plan. He didn't get the FA superstars---the plan failed---so he scrapped it and started anew by drafting and trading for potential superstars since they wouldn't sign with him. It looks like a good move: the superstars of the next draft class: Pierce, Vince and Jamison are all looking to stay put. Be objective. Something had to be done---and he didn't just sit back and refuse to make a move. He made one that could pay off in spades. Anyone can see that. And it could go up in smoke. Yeah...I can see that. We'll see.
I'll assume since you said 'lame historians' that you're including me in that assessment. I tried to offer the olive branch by giving you props for being a player, but you gotta come back like that, SO... You have no arguments why a SG that played in the Finals would not be considered a veteran. You have no arguments why Dumars playing Jordan year in and out would not make him a veteran. You have no arguments on why AD's workethic (which is the only thing anyone ever said GOOD about him) made him a TEAM leader. You have no arguments why Detroit would ship their team leader with a #1 pick for a player with less offensive skill and no defensive skill. You have no argument that you were WRONG about AD contributing to the Pistons first title year (notice the link I put up earlier that showed they got off to a slow start with AD UNTIL they were jump started by the trade for Aguirre). You have no arguments about Dumars ALWAYS being a mature and professional player. You have no argument that AD was not on a title team, and should not even be in this discussion about the necessity of veteran players to get a ring (AGAIN since he doesn't have one). I've offered several quotes that AD was traded because he caused bad chemistry. Every report of the trade at the time pinned the trade on AD's bad attitude and his ball hogging. Have you shown ANYTHING to refute that? No. Because you can puff up like a blowfish does not mean you can simply say 'case closed, dude' with any credibility.
Hey guys, I think we should chill out for awhile, let Rice step into his new numbered uniform, and start learning to fit into the system before we carry on debating whether this trade was worth it or not. The trade is a DONE DEAL, it's OVER. No more questions asked, no more doubts. Let's be fair to the man, if it's anything, he should be more motivated than anyone else to prove that this was a good trade because he has been out of position and not performing to his full capabilities the past few seasons. I believe that given the chance, he is fully capable of his hot shooting Charlotte days. It's only a few more weeks to pre-season games, let just sit back and relish the thought of a pure shooter on the team now. ps. I've always liked pure shooters like Rice and Richmond, whom I've felt have been overlooked in the game. GO RICE ! #XX ??? (now THIS is a good one to start guessing on)
Two points here. First, the Rockets didn't give up anything from their current roster to get Griffin. They added to their core, while the Bulls simply swapped for a different one. That's why one is seen more clearly as progress. Second, it's ironic that the only way you can defend Krause's 2001 offseason is by admitting that he ****ed up the 1999 draft. The WHOLE POINT of tanking (as noted earlier in this thread) is to land a franchise-caliber player -- i.e., not merely an All-Star, but a first-team All-NBA player. Francis and Lamar Odom have that kind of potential; Krause passed on both to pick Brand, who didn't ... and everyone knew it at the time. It was the equivalent of taking Shane Battier first in this year's draft. What a coincidence. I really expect Heather Graham and Estrella Warren to come over to my house and offer to spend the night. Krause "really expected" a franchise-player free agent to sign with the worst team in the league, just because they had cap room? Based on what evidence? Had anything like that happened in the past 10-15 years? Did the Bulls sign any top free agents in 1998 or 1999, when they were in a similar roster/cap-room situation? Again, you've just defended Krause by demonstrating how hopelessly, cluelessly out of touch with reality he was.
hayesstreet, My "lame historian" thing was poking fun at mr asterix man. He's a great historian of basketball, and we share a love for the Celtics and Notre Dame history. I think (I hope) Bob* knew I was jab-ing him. As for you asking for me to refute things, explain to me first where I was arguing with you other than to say that Dantley was not a "Malcontent" like you'd said....the Pistons loved him (especially Dumars), and Dumars wasn't the Vet Leader that haven said. Did I not say that Aguirre provided better court chemistry? That does not mean that the Pistons did not like Dantley and consider him a leader. Besides, Isiah was a huge ball-hog in the 4th quarter. He is regarded in my circles of history as an *******. Isiah had no chance to lead that team to victory by his will. Dantley and the defense that got them past the Celtics as much as Isiah did, imso. But, I don't like Isiah. I never did. I always liked Aguirre better. Isiah was a stat monger snob, in high school, and at Indiana. There is a reason Bobby Knight did not like him for disrupting his Motion offense to ISO. But Knight and Isiah got through that and won a title. Gotta hand it to Isiah, there! But Isiah then left because he didn't like to run Knight's motion. He wanted to jack up terrible 3-pointers in the NBA, instead. imo, Isiah and Pippen are the two most overhyped pieces of crap in NBA history. I don't dismiss their talent (Isiah was the best disher in traffic I've ever seen), but these guys were not leaders.
Any you've just proven how hopelessly, cluelessly, basketball-common-sense deprived you are. You aren't objective and your only purpose in posting is to bash. Peace kid... This conversation is over.
Well, 'historians' is plural, or maybe I'm paranoid. I guess we can agree to disagree on who was the leader of those champion Pistons (not sure who it was with AD gone, and you say its not Dumars or Thomas). Personally I've never been an Isiah fan either, for many of the same reasons, although I think his results are hard to argue with.
