Greece (V-Span) vs. United States (Battier), 6:30 a.m, Friday, Sept. 1

But Baby Shaq has shedded alot of weights already.

I was sort of shocked when the Chinese commentators said that in order to prepare for the European Championship, Sofoklis Schortsianitis has shedded some 50KGs, and now another 20 KGs for the World Championship....i.e. a total of 70 KGs !!! But still he is at 165 KGs !!!

 

Yeah, he had really let himself down in the last 2-3 years. There are even stories about how coaches would order the fridges in hotels where his team was staying to be locked because of him but he would go ahead and break the locks in order to grab something to eat But he's certainly taking more care of himself now.

 

did anyone hear that comment about jvg and dawson and yao and tmac should be very excited about spoon?

 

Spoon?

Unless you mean span

 

please do not mention spoon

I already got dizzy

 

While I do not post here often, I really do enjoy reading some very intelligent replies by some of the members. It also help me to track Houston Basketball Team in UK since I can't see them on air via PPLive every time.

Anyway, I think there is a conflation of various points into one set of argument by each members so I would like expand these specific points and contribute to the discussion.

Firstly, whether you argue Grecee deserved it or not, I don't think anyone seriously believes that there isnt an element of luck in their victory.
Every game, from the statistical point, is a random process since there are many elements beyond the control of players that affect the outcome of the game, - bio-rythm of players probably being the most important.

Now, you may argue that by having best of 7 series to see who has the better team, and well, I agree that mathematically 4-7 sample is better than one since one has to believe that the statistical process which generates victory and loss, is stationary in the short run, hence we would expect the probability to converge to a particular point (meaning law of large numbers apply). But what happens if team is tied up 3-3 in the best of 7 series? Can we really say that the team that wins the last game is emphatically better than the loser? The point is that the margin of differences between big teams is small and there will always be an element of luck even in the best of seven series. Moreoever, you guys miss the point that in order to conclude that one team is better than the other, large sample size isnt sufficient in itself and we would also need to take into consideration the margin of game differences for a corresponding sample size.

This lead me to the second point. I think most of people who argues that we should have a 7 game format are probably those who thought USA would walk over this tournament initially. Obviously, I understand their frustration, and frankly, I believe too, on talent wise at least, USA is just simply on a different level term to its opposition.
But as durvasa correctly mentioned in the earlier posts, if you actually sit down and run through the probability of USA actually winning the whole thing, then you would realize that in actual fact probability isnt too great.
In life there is a bad time as well as good times. As much as we would like to will our way to success, life isnt that simple.

So my point being is that, instead of taking certain achievements for granted we should appreciate it. Instead of dubbing Greek achievements as luck lets appreciate the efforts they have made to reach the final. Greek may have got lucky being at a right place at a right time, but that is part of life. Moreover, we should also more lenient to those who doesnt quite reach top of their respective professions. Life isnt an one shot game, where current winner is the king and the loser's are slaves. There are always opportunities for redemptions in the future.
If anything else, the whole debate whether Greek deserved it or not, demonstrate ill of our society where all the spot light goes to winner and the rest ignored.

BTW, I don't buy into this teamwork argument. It may be true but as they always say hindsight is 20/20.

 

Here here. Give credit where credit is due. The Greek Team played a helluva game.

 

The more games you play, the greater the likelihood that the "better team" wins the majority of the games. Yes, a best of 7 doesn't prove the better team won, but you can be more certain of it than in a best of 5 or best or 3 or, obviously, a single elimination game.

I agree with your point that point differential (per minute or per possession) over a stretch of games is also an important factor. In fact, I'd argue that it's a better indicator of who the better team was than the series outcome.

If the main goal is to ensure that the best team wins, than a best of 7 format is better. But there are other considerations, so I'm fine with the single elimination format.

Some interesting thoughts here. I agree.

 

Don't get too much ahead. We'll see how the game develops when it comes.
Spain is a difficult team with or without Gasol. We're hoping if needed we can drown them with our defence since vs the USA we haven't played any, and Spain has better shooters if we'll play zone again. The strength of this Greece is the determination we have.

And Rocket can have his opinion, but it's flawed, cause international competition works to give the weaker teams chances in winning, in every sport, hence the single game elimination system.

As for spanoulis don't judge him from one game. He has potential, and qualities, we've already sorted that out, but it's a wait and see game for him. I sure hope he'll adjust instantly, but let's give him an initial break for the transition. I believe if the coach shows he trusts him, he'll deliver though.
Like I said, he's a hard worker.

 

LOL. As if it's not a "distraction" for the greeks. As if they don't play "real" basketball for their own clubs.

I thought basketball is all about winning ? Now it's about money ? Maybe Kelvin Cato actually understands "real" basketball.

It was a failure, and with that kind of attitude, it's going to fail again.

 

That fat C of Creek team will be an excellent backup for Yao and with his speed he can play some PF in NBA. Is he available?

 

Another important factor to consider has to do with how Euro and NBA players deal with defeat. In the NBA, even the champion will probably lose around 20-30 times during the season and the play-offs. The other teams will lose even more games, 40, 50 or even 60. In contrast, a good European team, like Panathinaikos for example, Spanoulis former team (which has another 4 players in the Greek national team) lost only 2 games in the whole season for the Greek league, swept all the series at the play-offs and lost just 7 games in the Euroleague. That's just 9 losses in almost 70 games. What this means, is that the average Euro player is less accustomed to defeat than the average NBAer. And not only that, but every single defeat here in Europe is treated like a catastrophe and brings gloom, complains and sadness to everyone associated with the losing team, from the players and the coach to the fans. Big NBA stars who came to play in Europe like Dominique Wilkins, Scott Skiles, Eddie Johnson and Byron Scott had trouble adjusting to this at first because they couldn't understand why the fans booed them or even attacked them after a defeat at the start of the season. Of course, I'm not saying that putting pressure into players to win all the time is the correct attitude; we're probably enjoying the game less in that way, by seeing every individual game as a war that has to be won at all costs. But the undeniable result of this "must-always-win" attitude is evident in the court when you watch a Euro team play.

I read that Chris Bosch was making jokes with the journalists at the conference after the game and Howard said "it's just a defeat, life goes on". But Bosch lost 55 games with Toronto this season alone, so just another defeat doesn't make any difference to him. Spanoulis would probably need 3 or 4 seasons in the Greek and European league in order to experience so many losses. If Greece had lost, even though it would have been expected as USA were the favourites, you'd only see gloomy faces who wouldn't have the courage to talk to the journalists. So I think that this different attitude towards losing gives a very important edge to Euro players.

 

Oh C'mon, the US team hasn't won the Champ in WBC since 1994. So far they have tried 3 times to get rid of your so called "bad luck of a better team". Although I hated to see US team lost, let's face it that the US team simply just isn't the best team in the world.

 

If the NBA team interested manages to get his rights from the Clippers, i don't see why not. But he's 21 still and will need about 2 years to solidify his game, so I don't think one can hope for him earlier. He's currently playing for an Athenean team.

Btw, I spotted Kazlauskas, the Chinese coach watching the game. Didn't he return to China with the rest of the team?

 

How different is the NBA from fiba rules though? Except for very minor things...

I think a lot has to do with the fact that this U.S. team didn't shoot well enough from the perimeter. Perhaps their defense was mediocre as well. Maybe should have played more man as the Greek team is obviously more familiar with out to break down a zone defense.

I have a feeling we lost more on knowledge then skill.....but also that it's just one game so it's hard to judge.

In any case, I don't think anyone questions that the best basketball in the world is still the NBA and the U.S. is still the mecca and dominant power of the sport.

I still don't think any of these team would be the Heat.

 

Vspan is not gonna like the coming season then. I hope he gets used to it soon. He has to.

 

I think he is ready to play now. A lot of teams, including us, can use his service right away.

I'd think the whole CNT is on vacation now.

 

I hope the Rockets aren't going to spoil him by making a lot of losses He needs to retain his winning spirit.

I remember that Dino Radja quit playing in the NBA although he still had good stats and was one of the best centers in the league because he happened to be part of that very awful Celtics team that lost all the time. When he returned to Europe he said "I was just tired and disgusted of having to go 5 or 7 games without a win". For a player like V-Span, even just 2 or 3 losses in a row will seem very awful.

 

Even the best team in the league are gonna loss more games than he can bear. I like that spirit, I also hope that he can cope with reality.

 

durvasa,

I agree with your point that bigger the sample sizes, the more likely that better are likely going to go through, especially in the instances where we conjecture that one team (USA) have big advantage over the opponent. So in the case of International Basketball, I am highly doubtful whether there is team that can beat USA over 7 game serious. No argument here. This is simply the law of large numbers, which isnt all that hard grasp.

The problem I have is that I think there is a tendency (not directing my criticisms to a particular individual) in here that those who call for the 7 game series are exactly the same people who thought USA would walk over this competition. Now I understand their feeling where all this is coming from, but at the same time I view it simply as an excuse to gloss over the failings of US teams, what in fact if you look careful, as you have rightly mentioned, was quite predictable or likely in truth. I guess people needs to vent their frustration and there is nothing better than the format because you can rationally put down your case. In fact, I do that when my favourite soccer team gets knocked out by supposedly inferior opposition.

However, I am doubtful whether the change of format is beneficial for competition if you take consideration how it is run at this present time. There is no way the crowd in the host nation can absorb plethora of games if we changed the system to a best of 5 or 7 game series. I would bet all my asset that it would go largely un-noticed in Japan if such exposure of games was to happen. Can you guys imagine China vs Slovenia best of 7 series? Probably not, unless you are Chinese or Slovenian, although I must confess there are rather many Chinese around the world to care about .

Beside, if you factor in the probable convergence in abilities between US and the rest of world, then one can plausibly argue that the best of 7 series will not be big enough to fully distinguish between teams, and more freak results likely to occur in near future. Nonetheless, I guess people would more inclined to accept the result since people are more used to this best 7 series than straight knock out competition.

One solution I can think of is instead of adopting World Cup like format, FIBA can arrange the competition in a NBA play-off or Davis Cup manner. Lets face it, as much as FIBA wants to establish basketball as an international brand and there are growing support throughout the world, basketball simply doesnt quite get the media exposure that perhaps soccer gets around the world.
Beside, if fan thinks the game lacks the competitive edge and just a showcase of talents, then the current will not get any better (I am not saying players arent trying because they are). Hence, I quite like the approach whereby you invite as many countries as possible in the initial group stage held at a particular country. This will expose more country to the competition and may generate more interest around the world. Once we go through the group stage and trim the teams into last 16 or 8, teams will have to play best of 5 series playing in their own countries. Home and away - ah typical NBA playoff match.
It allows the countries participating in the knockout to fully immerse themselves over the event and be more active in their support. Can you imagine US playing aginst Argentina in Argentina? It will be mouth watering prospect, as a neutral.

I know it means more travel and more work for the players involved but all I can say is that these are the luckiest people in the world and few can enjoy couple of months breaks like them. World Cup would not be what it is if people didnt give their 110% like they do.