Much of it is to be honest. The writer of B5 submitted his mythos bible to the production company that did Star Wars in the 80s and they rejected it and then hired someone to do a Star Wars version with the same core theories. Heck, even some character names were taken. However, it's not an exact replica of the B5 universe. One of the things I always found myself cringing at in Star Trek was the "utopian" system of the Federation. We've evolved to an amazing place where money is irrelevant, medicine is free and can heal almost anything in minutes, transporters teleport us, etc. etc. This certainly doesn't exist in Babylon 5, where Earth is not nearly the most powerful force in the universe. Money plays a role, there is poverty still, ships are not well oiled machine, sleek against space, etc. Great shows.
The Federation was an ideal of Gene Roddenberry who wanted to present a hopeful view of the future. In the '60's there was war, racial strife, and the threat of nuclear Armageddon so in response he wanted a vision of the future where people of all races (and species) were equal with crime and poverty eliminated. So on the bridge of The Enterprise while you still had a white man in command (he could only go so far) you have a partial alien with devil ears as second in command (in the pilot a woman was first officer), a black African, Japanese and even a Russian as senior officers. We take stuff like that for granted now but in 1967 that was ground breaking. Brannon Braga and Ronald Moore though wanted to take on the idea of the Federation utopia and after Roddenberry's death were much freer to do so. Here is a scene between Quark and Garak explaining why someone might not want the Federation utopia. <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vz-MepaJCM4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> They also though looked at what it takes to maintain the Federation and challenged the naive belief that such an institution can survive only on the honor good deeds of its members. Here is a scene of a Stafleet Admiral revealing how the Federation is really protected. <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/387EEt_GeVU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> Scenes like these were almost a direct rebuttal to Kirk and Picard lecturing alien races about Federation (really American) ideals of individual liberty. Revealing that on the face of the happy JFK optimism of the Federation there was Richard Nixon keeping it going. It's things like that that made DS9 great. Unlike B5 and Firefly that were its contemporaries it already had a universe and back story that it had that it could work with. It delved much deeper into the nature of the Federation and Starfleet than any of the other Trek shows without completely trashing it.
Yeah you didn't need to show me clips of DS9. I love DS9 even though I didn't love the rest of the Star Trek Universe. It is more in like with the B5 universe than TNG.
I love those clips and was posting them as much for my own enjoyment as to make a point. While DS9's vision is similar to B5, probably because they ripped off Straczynski, I think it's still very much the same universe as TNG. The Starfleet crew of DS9 for the most part act like Starfleet officers of the Enterprise D and fully believe int he ideals of the Federation. B5 starts out with the premise that the Earth Alliance is already weak and flawed at the core and ultimately is rejected by Sheridan for something greater, a pan planetary pan species alliance. Pretty much the Federation. DS9 accepts the idea that the Federation is a utopia but peels back the curtain to challenge the naivete that the Federation survives purely on goodwill and honor but that moral compromises are made all the time to keep it alive. That is why the Bashir scene is so great because his character was one that started out as the most naive true believer in Federation ideals. Pairing him with Garak was meant to show the contrast between the fresh faced idealist Starfleet officer with the antithesis of what Starfleet is. In the end Bashir finds out that Starfleet has more in common with Garak than thought. Even knowing that Bashir, Sisko et al, never abandon the Federation but continue to fight for it. While the realize that the Federation has some deep flaws it still is seen as a force for good and to the end they maintain their loyalty and dignity as Starfleet officers.
About halfway through season 1 (God bless Netflix for the iPhone! It makes work go by MUCH quicker). Started quite sluggish & had a lot of procedural episodes, but that past few have been good dealing with the backstory of Dax as well as the mysteries of Odo's race. I'm intrigued. Especially since people keep telling me it gets better with each season. I agree that it does feel more like a B5 universe than a Star Trek one. Well, a B5 universe with Ferengi & Klingons.
LOL. The show in my mind gets very intriguing beginning with Season 1 finale and the 3 part opener to Season 2. The only problem I have with DS9 (and it's similar to all Star Trek shows) is that it is so episodic that each show deals with a major issue that gets wrapped up by the end or we get a "to be continued." Then the next episode stars over fresh. Example. An episode might introduce a character we've never heard of or seen before, this person is suddenly very important to the show only to die or betray someone by the end of that episode. I've always hated that about Star Trek shows. B5 did this to an extent, but much less so. They did a much better job of flashing the minor characters throughout the show and rarely using "extras" who were suddenly guest starring for that episode to betray someone or die. I always appreciated that about B5.
Agree with both you and Grendel. Firefly was fine, but to me it just seems like the trendy choice for people who haven't actually watched much sci-fi. I voted DS9. I've watched both DS9 and Next Generation all the way through multiple times (got the DVDs), and DS9 was simply stronger overall because it had a stronger cast, as well as some actual continuity (which forced greater creativity, rather than moving on to some different planet every week). But as for the character thing, really think about the characters for a minute. Picard was good, but he suffered from being the Guy Who Always Does the Right Thing, idealistic as the show is. Riker was pretty good. Data was great -- probably the best "mirror on humanity" character that Star Trek has had. After that, it gets dicey. Worf was a walking stereotype (much better in DS9). Geordi's only defining characteristics were that he wore the eye thing and he couldn't get a date. Doctor Crusher had no personality whatsoever. Troi and Wesley were just annoying. Now go to DS9. Sisko is righteous, but also flawed (remember him bringing the Romulans into the war *spoilers*)? Kira was probably the most well-rounded female character Star Trek has ever had. Odo was great. O'Brien was great as the everyman who kept having terrible things happen to him. Worf grew a more well-rounded personality. Quark was fun even though he was stereotypical. Bashir started out boring, but ended strong with the whole Section 9 and genetically engineered wrinkles. And then there were the awesome supporting characters, like Garak and Dukat and Weyoun. Okay, Dax and Jake and Nog and Rom were kind of nowhere. But you can't win 'em all. And Voyager, well... The Doctor was great, Neelix was pretty good, and Janeway was okay. Everyone else sucked. I would take any DS9 or Next Gen character over the remaining Voyager crew.
I remember this scene well. You guys make me want to resume Netflix early (as in before the NBA season ends) just to re-watch B5 and DS9. I normally only get it July to October.
I thought DS9 was the worst of all the star trek series. I voted TNG but have no problem with those that voted Firefly, that was a great short series that should have had more years. Would X-Files be included? If so I thing that would be my number 1 of all time.
Well, the thread is about "space-based" sci-fi, so I wouldn't say X-Files really works for that. If we're talking all sci-fi, I've got some anime shows to consider. Ghost in the Shell, for starters. Not sure if I'd take it over DS9... it would be close. They're such different things. I'd put Texhnolyze up there as well. That show blew my mind to little pieces, although it's very very slow to start. But I would be curious as to why you thought DS9 was the worst of the Star Trek series. I've watch all of TNG, DS9, Voyager, and bits of Enterprise and the original series, and to me DS9 seems pretty clearly to be the best (or maybe second-best to TNG, depending on what you're looking for).
Neelix was pretty good? Neelix was pretty good????? Neelix?????? Seriously???? You just lost all credibility. Might as well throw everything you previously said out the window.
I was gonna mention this myself Neelix was far and away the worst and most annoying character on the show The Doctor and Seven were great characters, I would probably even put Janeway in that group........BUT NEELIX!!!! UGHHHH
I thought Troi was annoying as hell until I watched Neelix. I always wanted them to kill him off in an accident of some sort. Lol.
Put me in the "Neelix sucked" camp. I liked Seven, Tuvok and the Doctor on Voyager. Janeway was ok, nothing special.
Seven was sexy but her character was just . . .ok The Doctor was the best character Kess was decent .. .but then disappeared Tuvok was sometimes interesting the rest were just. . . there . . for no reason whatsoever. Janeway was so bland . .. and the prime directive had no place there Their dealings with the borg and species r334r5525r were only mildly interesting. Q appearences were wasted ok ok ok I think you get it .. I'm not a fan of Voyager Rocket River
Trust me, I understand what you're saying. When I was originally watching Voyager back in high school on Spike TV, I hated the guy. He just seemed like he was put there just to be annoying... one of those people who insists on being all bubbly and happy and telling you to look on the bright side like you're ten years old. So I understand the urge to poke him in the eye with a sharp stick. But then I re-watched all of Voyager again just in the past year or so (via Netflix). And it was in re-watching it, and being a little older, that I started to appreciate that Neelix is actually very well-conceived and tightly written. They meant for him to be annoying at times... that's part of his charm. He puts on a show of being cheery and sure of himself, when in fact there are a lot of times in the show when he's not confident at all. In real life, you can appreciate that person that puts on a brave face and acts cheery in the face of adversity when everyone else just wants to mope and whine and be depressed. Going along with his faux confidence, he's likewise massively insecure when it comes to his relationship with Kess... and who among us hasn't been there? He's also one of the very few Star Trek characters who has some sort of religious commitment (Major Kira is the other that leaps to mind), which is played through consistently and lends further credence to his character. I'm agnostic, myself, and I know Roddenberry was an atheist, but the fact is that a lot of people in this country believe in a God of one sort of another, and it's worth having a character on-screen who can struggle with faith issues. Add on his connections and baggage in the delta quadrant, and you've got yourself an interesting character, annoying as he may be on the face of it. I could go on, but suffice it to say that ten years has made me do a 180 on that particular character. Meanwhile, two out of the four of you who say you hate Neelix say you liked Seven. I mean, really? She's good-looking, but man she was boring as all hell. Her whole character and storyline was stiff, awkward, hackneyed, and obvious. I'm quite certain that the show as a whole would have been better off without her. And Tuvok... well, he wasn't the worst character on the show, but I certainly didn't think he qualified as "good." No accounting for taste, I guess.
Almost done with season 1 of DS9 after a crazy marathon. Honestly, not that impressed. I like most of the characters, but way too many boring episodic offerings thus far. I'm willing to keep going, but I hope this main arc kicks in soon.
Once you get into Season 3, you will understand. Can't remember much about Season 2. If DS9 were launched today, it would be canned midway in the first year.
Probably so. It's like Stargate Universe I think started hitting it's stride just in time to get cancelled. It sometimes take's writers and producers to get a feel for a show.
