[FEDERALIST] Why Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Could Be The Left’s Donald Trump

Summarizing what political compass said. If you think Hitler is right of Obama work it out with them.

 

Bobby, the funny thing is that according to you...Obama was a far-left president...you've said this for years now...

Until Ocasio showed up, now, in this thread you say he was a moderate. You said in this very thread that Obama WAS a moderate...this is after years of you saying that he was far-left. Lol, Ocasio existing apparently changed Obama's political position...despite...you know...Bernie existing for all that time who has always been way left of Obama.

I'm trying to help the guy out but he merely doesn't get it.

He doesn't seem to understand that there is a general political ideas that are left and right, this is in simple terms. Of course I think things are more complex than left-right, it's very hard to get him to see that there are left wing ideas and right wing ideas.

That there are ideas that make people left and ideas that make people right. We've been using these ideas to politically talk about history forever now. We don't say Hitler was right-wing because at the time Germany was so far left and...no, we say Hitler was right of center because he favored capitalism over socialist policies and he was also in favor of a hierarchy and an order to things, which we see right wingers tend to like.

I mean to be left, the actual definition, is that economically you are for regulations, unions, things like this. To be right means the opposite of those things. These are set. Sure, in American terms Obama can be seen far left if the entire country is far right, that is in relative terms...but historians are not going to talk about him in relative terms, that Ish is confusing. Everyone knows that there is a 0 point and that it is the same. Sure there are positions that are very flexible, as we saw Stalin was super far left but also an authoritarian.

That's why when @Bandwagoner said that North Korea was far left he was probably referring to the economy and structure of NK at the time and identifying that these ideas were left of the general center.

Unfortunately, when you talk to @Bobbythegreat , definitions, words, etc etc, have 0 meaning. He just changes them to suit whatever argument he's making. He could have easily said that he personally saw Obama as a moderate now but that would have been admitting that I was right about Obama all this time, I've been calling Obama that for a while now, he didn't listen. Ocasio broke his scale. I guess he's just now finding out that there were people left of Obama, i dunno.

For Bobby, these things don't exist...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_politics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left–right_political_spectrum

Bobby is arguing against political science.

We can't ever call an international politician left or right if we don't even have a basis of what it means. What is Putin? Merkel? Jinping? Who knows!!! You're going to apparently have to find whose left and right of each leader to make that determination, you can't just look at their policies according to Bobby.

 

check political compass. The website you have been defending for 2 pages. Simply reporting what they put.

 

No, I'm defending the idea of the political spectrum, which is what that site uses.

Do you think North Korea, since Kim Il Sung is left or right, and why?

 

you've not only been defending the site, you've been defending relative orientation they use.

 

Riiiight...

No, I'm defending the idea of the political spectrum, which is what that site uses.

Do you think North Korea, since Kim Il Sung is left or right, and why?

 

DPRK is a far left regime and always has been. Please go back and edit your posts about Obama being right or left. It's clear you were defending them. One small niggle doesn't take all of those posts away.

 

Lol, when I first asked that you hid behind the site and said "Just reporting what they said" and now you admit you agree with them there...but what makes them far-left in your mind? Because you say so?

Nothing to edit man, go back and quote where I defended them. All I did was quote their analysis of Obama, which I then said I disagreed with. I then said at least their analysis of him was thought out, they gave actual reasons as to why they thought this and why they were placing him where they did.

The only reason they are in this thread is because Bobby brought them up. The political compass is their thing, it's even trademarked, so I have no idea why Bobby brought them up. He did, not I, so I decided to show him that the political compass (which he referred to, not me) thought that Obama was far right.

 

One of the main problems of that "argument" was you didn't understand what was being contested. It's a theme. We tried for three pages to even figure out where we disagreed recently. The end was pure frustration with no result. You don't like that site now, fantastic. You are absolutely free to abandon it.

 

I call this faux freak out. But there is this thing where if you keep freaking yourself out, those neutral pathway is going to strenghten and soon you’re going to think it’s reality! Delusional builder.

 

Which argument? I was having a back and forth with Bobby, you chimed in every now and then to remind everyone that you felt Nazi Germany and North Korea were left-wing politics, you didn't say why you thought that, just that you did.

The only theme here is your tactics of being unfair towards those you are conversating with and running around a topic with as much vagueness as possible, incapable of answering questions and also incapable of taking your opponent's position as is. Even as I clearly state my position on something you ignore it and Instead, you try to frame me, for example.

• Saying that I defended the site when I didn't.

I asked you to show the examples of me defending the site so that some clarity could be found...but your response was the post quoted above...
I didn't defend the site, I have no reason to even do so, it's not like it's the only place making the correct claim that Obama is right of center.

• Now saying that I dislike the site now.

When did I say if I liked or disliked the site? All I said was that I liked that they explained why they put Obama where they put him, which is more than what you've done and others. I could disagree with everything on the site and still like it or vice versa. I like that they are clear on how their compass works, a term, btw, they trademarked. When Bobby brought up Political Compass, a trademarked term, was it wrong for me to think he was talking about this particular political scale?

 

You have far more patience than I do.

These people are time wasters, in my opinion. You go to some trouble to spell out a position that explodes what they were saying and they will try to change the conversation. Why? Because they can't handle the truth.

 

I guess when we both tried to explain the relative nature of the terms left and right on the american political spectrum you just didn't understand and now are doing some sort of Filibuster?

Seriously, you disagree with the site that Hitler and DPRK are far left of Obama. That's your prerogative. I found it interesting the orientation of the subjective "center". If you could do the work this time and spell out specifically where we disagree. I honestly cannot be bothered to do this again.

 

When you need to resort to personal insults, you've lost the argument. And oh yeah, HRC won a slight majority. That (among other things) shows that the nation is becoming left, not right (for better or worse).

 

It's just puzzling how any conversation can be had when basic ideas can't even be grounded. I thought Bobby was just like this but it seems to be a growing trend where the truth is just flexible.

That hey, the Political Compass? Yeah, I'm going to ignore what it actually is and give you my own on the spot definition of it.

I understood that completely. It seems neither of you understands the general nature of what the Political Spectrum is...

This is me...

This is because I understand what this is...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum

Bobby then responds...

What? Look at the page I linked you, you will see that what I was referring to is the general idea of left-right politics, within that idea there are different charts to represent the spectrum, Bobby refers to the POLITICAL COMPASS...which is a distinct idea made by people who trademarked the name. Bobby was just 100% wrong. They do not say that their compass is based on circumstance. It is not. That's just wrong.

Again, the compass doesn't change.

How they rated Obama, DPRK, Hitler, Thatcher, Ghandi etc is by taking their actions and policies and transferring them to their test, I believe. Their method is their method, I don't think it is perfect, but it is still within the idea of left-right politics and the political spectrum. Where they place Obama DPRK, whoever isn't really relevant. The discussion can be had, surely, but the focus here is...is there a general center or not? If we can't even agree on that then how do we decide on if Obama is left or right? It's just going to be dependent on where you and I are on the spectrum, do you think that is fruitful?

I don't know where you and I disagree, because all you've said in this thread is that you thought DPRK is left, which I agree with. I'm no NK historian but a glance at how they've done things seem to say that they favored left-wing economies and structure, on the compass, left-wing authoritarian seems to fit them.

I don't know if you agree or not with the existence of a political spectrum. All you've done in this thread is back Bobby, who has been arguing that it doesn't exist. That's why I asked you WHY you thought NK was far-left, because if you begin to explain, you'd basically admit that yes, there is a political spectrum and because NK did these things, that makes them on this side of the spectrum...which...btw, is all that site does. All they are doing is saying this policy is right, this one is right, this one is right...this puts this person on the right.

So I have no idea where we disagree, maybe if you take a stance and explain yourself we could see if we disagreed at all. I'd have a feeling that we agree on there being a spectrum, the opposite, that there is no left-wing policies or right-wing policies, is a radical position.

By the way, you should read the FAQ on the site, it answers a lot of your questions...the following two is for @Bobbythegreat , who tried to define the Political Compass as something based on circumstance, the creators say no. no it is not.

 

So I think this gets to the core. He said the site was a joke, I disagreed and said it was good because Hitler and DPRK are both far left of america (Obama). I just had a problem with centering when talking about american politics. Bobby was trying to explain this concept of relative position to you and it SEEMED like you misunderstood. If not, then we have it all settled.

 

Well then, I think we agree, I always understood the relative position because I said that Obama was right on the spectrum(in general) and that he'd be a strong conservative voice if he was a European politician.

Hitler's economy was/is left of where America is now, that's true, but he's right of center. He certainly had no love for liberal ideas and policies. I think that Hitler because of the society he ran though was far right of where America is. The focus on hierarchy has always been thought of in general as right-wing politics. NK is far left, this is true, it doesn't mean that left wing ideas will always lead to NK. This is something the FAQ hits on. This also means that just because Hitler is on this side or that, that anyone close to him is literally Hitler.

My position was always that Obama was right of the general center, that Ocasio and Bernie Sanders are not far left of that center, but merely just left. My entire argument with Bobby made me believe that he thinks there is no universal center. If there isn't, then I don't know how we can say that NK or Nazi Germany is on this or that side. How do we even have that discussion? We'd have to decide on a center.

 

This is the entire point of the thing. How can you say, OK this guy is far left of Obama but right of center without an agreed upon center. It seems to me all you need is another outlier to move the center and make him left? It's all relativistic and thus meaningless. Let's just take it as read that when discussing american politics, center is based on american politics, and Obama is left.

 

Thanks for sharing that. I'd never really heard or seen her speak. She's very articulate and presents her ideas logically.
But just as a mammal, here is another democrat whose literal voice will hold her back from higher offices. Seriously. This trivial stuff matters and it was a big deal (IMO) in the depressing electoral career of one Hillary Clinton. Don't even make me look up a clip of her laughing or yelling. You know you're already covering your ears just thinking about it.