[FEDERALIST] Why Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Could Be The Left’s Donald Trump

Care to post any quote where she says she wants to end capitalism?

 

You've made this claim a couple of times now, as have others I've seen. However, I have never heard he say anything of the like.

 

It only looks that way to you because the GOP and people like you have lurched to the right so far and so fast that anyone left of Rush Limbaugh is called a "socialist," "Marxist," or "communist."

 

Except they haven't. It is a well established fact in political academic circles that politics in the United States has moved dramatically to the right since Ronald Reagan, who wouldn't be able to win nomination as a Republican today because he wouldn't be conservative enough.

 

Well, it's the goal of socialists to end capitalism and install socialism.....and when she was asked about capitalism she went on about how it won't be around forever, I mean, you connect the dots kiddo.

Ocasio-Cortez, and the DSA, view capitalism as one of the main problems in society but they know they can't get rid of it overnight, so it's more of a long term goal for them.

Not true, if anything EVERYONE has moved a bit to the left over the last decade or so....and those I cal a "socialist" are those that call themselves "socialists" and those who believe in ending capitalism and replacing it with socialism.

That's simply not true. Look at it this way, when Hillarycare was proposed in the 90's, it was shot down instantly by everyone, including democrats. When it came back around 15+ years later, this time called Obamacare, it was more warmly accepted by democrats....but even with full control over both branches of congress they still couldn't get complete democrat support for it without bribing multiple democrats with countless millions in added pork. Today, you have outright socialists running for congress.....but sure, you can't see that things have moved to the left.

 

That site is clearly a joke right?

As to the political compass, where the center is set is arbitrary and whoever set the center to the one you posted is clearly off their meds since they believe that Obama was a right wing authoritarian when he was clearly a left wing authoritarian.

The problem you are having is that you are trying to treat politics as if it is a true science (with your comparison to North on a compass) and that simply isn't the case. When they say "Political Science" it's a social science.....which is a way of saying that it's not a real science.

When you are posting a political compass, it's similar to posting a map. You can pick a map zoomed out so far that Houston looks not terribly far away from El Paso or you could post one zoomed in so far that Houston looks really far away from Sugar Land. Where you center the map is also important. If you want to pin down where Houston is located, if you center the map between Houston and Louisiana, Houston is in the West. If you post a map centered between Houston and El Paso, Houston is in the East....so which is it? Is Houston in the East or is Houston in the West? Both and neither is the correct answer. The same goes for your political compass. If you pick a center that is really far to the left, it'll make everyone look like they are on the right, but that's no more valid than a political compass centered really far to the right that shows everyone on the left.

With this political compass, it's telling that they have Ron Paul pushed so far to the right and yet he's not shown to be very libertarian....I think you need to find different people to center your political compass.

 

The most surprising part of this entire thread is you understanding that Bernie wants to temper capitalism, same as all democratic socialists.
Ocasio's platform is identical to Bernie's. Could you point me to something that shows that she wants to end capitalism?

 

No, they are not the same. Bernie is a capitalist who merely says he's a socialist. In reality he's a Social Democrat who would maintain a capitalist system in order to fund social programs....that's different from being a Democratic Socialist who would want to ultimately end capitalism and replace it with socialism.

The Social Democrat would see capitalism as a good thing, the Democratic Socialist would see it as a bad thing. Ocasio-Cortez is a Democratic Socialist and she clearly shares that world view.

 

You do realize that YOU brought up the political compass? That is what you were talking about... whether you realize it or not you were talking about that site and the creators of that method.

Do you not know what a Compass is?

No, I'm treating politics as politics. Which means that people have positions and ideals and that puts them somewhere on the political spectrum.

You are treating it as something based on your feelings, where you feel like Obama was a far left liberal but based on the things he's actually done, he's closer to the right.

O Em Gee....do you not know what the North Pole is?

Yes, Houston could be East of you, West of you, South or North...but it doesn't actually change its position. Your the one moving, houston is not. The political compass works the same way. It tells you where NSEW are and people can move in those directions. With you, you are so far right that everyone seems like they are lefties to you, which means Ocasio to you seems like literal Stalin when she quite simply is not.

 

A lot of people mean a lot of different things when they say "socialist." And, to be completely clear, Ocasio-Cortez doesn't describe herself as a "socialist," but as a "Democratic Socialist," which has different connotations altogether.

Is this in the actual interview or the one where her responses were edited in with a fake interviewer asking different questions? It would be best if you provide a link to the video you're "citing" along with a timestamp. You're prone to believing bullsh!t artists, nobody who thinks takes what you say as accurate.

You connected the dots with assumptions, son. In doing so, you showed your ass.

Again, provide a quote where Ocasio-Cortez says this, I have heard conservative pundits claim she has said it, but nothing from her lips.

Assumption.

You're wrong. By all empirical measures, the US has moved to the right.

Except that the ACA was much more similar to what the Heritage Foundation (conservative think tank) proposed as their alternative to Hillarycare.

They haven't, not when you look at the actual evidence rather than your assumptions.

 

Only "clear" to people like you who believe the bullshit artists who make those claims. Find a quote where she says anything even CLOSE to that or STFU, boy.

 

Yep true. I could spend the rest of the day if I wanted to finding right wing talking heads at the time calling Obama all three of these things and many of the right wingers here seemed to agree with it at the time.

This took about 10 seconds to find...

 

They show Hitler was far left of Obama which is true as Hitler was a far left wing authoritarian. They simply have a centering and scale problem which is a given if you try to put a North Korean perspective on the same infographic as American politics. It also means the centering and scale are useless when solely discussing american politics which is what people here are trying to do.

 

Okay, I'll explain it to where you can understand it. Let's go back to maps for a bit, there are maps that show Greenland being larger than the continent of Africa....now we know this to be false so since that one map shows a distortion of reality does that mean that the concept of maps is a bad thing?

Someone can screw up a political compass by distorting reality such as the one you posted, that doesn't mean the concept of a political compass is bad.

A real compass or a political compass? You do know that they are different things right? A political compass is subjective, a real compass is merely a tool that shows the direction of the magnetic north pole.

A political compass is essentially based on feelings. The center is subjective as is the scales used to determine how far right or left a person is. Any political compass that shows Obama as a pretty far right authoritarian is one that is as assed up as a map that shows Greenland being larger than Africa.

What is moving is the center and scale of the political compass....

It's funny that you keep bringing up Stalin when it comes to Ocasio-Cortez when no one else has mentioned him. Ocasio-Cortez is not a Stalinist, she's a different type of Socialist, she believes in socialism replacing capitalism through democratic means as was done in Venezuela, not via revolution.

Exactly, and I'm sure that's obvious to most.....but I'm having to explain it to the rest.

No, Democratic Socialist is merely one type of socialist. It's a socialist that differs from Marxist theory that the only way Socialism can come about is through violent revolution. Basically Democratic Socialism is what Hugo Chavez did in Venezuela. In the end though, it's still socialism so it still leads to poverty, starvation, and death.

It's in the actual interview, not the parody. Do your own homework kid, you might learn something and you eliminating a bit of your own ignorance would benefit all.

 

You've assumed that AOC's definition of Democratic Socialism matches your own.

Then I'm sure you can find a quote of AOC that advocates for a Venezuela-style economy or one who lauds Chavez. If not, then this is another assumption.

Another assumption.

Then you should be able to locate the quote.

You made the claim, as such it is YOUR homework to support it, not mine, boy.

I'm not the one relying on assumptions, chief.

 

No, the concepts of maps is not a bad thing. You are still pretending that locations on a map can change.

No, no it is not.

It is not based on feelings.

It is based on this. Left economic policies favor the state or community, right favors individuals and corporations. If I run on getting rid of regulations, that makes it a RIGHT ECONOMIC POLICY. Full stop. It doesn't make it left because someone else runs to the right of me and wants to make worker unions illegal. That just means the other guy is further to the right of me. Obama as rated on his economy is definitely right of center. I'm sorry you and others disagree, it's just how it is.

LOL the center never moves man. You are the one moving and confused at all the radical lefties you see because you yourself keep moving further and further to the right. I know you are a radical because of your historical positions as well, when you can't even admit that FDR was a good president...you just might be a right wing radical.

I'm really tired of this lazy Venezuela talking point. Just because a party takes the name "Socialist" doesn't mean they are actually that, as Hitler's Nazi party demonstrated, because despite what was said (by @Bandwagoner ), Hitler was a right-wing authoritarian, the folks at the compass site say this. It only says that he was to the left of Obama economically but that he was to the right of the center...thus meaning he was a right wing authoritarian in their view.

Here is more about that, I know you won't read it or if you do you will just ignore it and claim you know better than the people that have followed the country for their lives, but it's for more reasonable people to dig into.
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/05/what-venezuela-tells-us-about-socialism

Also, you keep forgetting that democratic socialists still agree to democratic elections and democracy. Which is what she clearly said in the oft mocked by the right interview. I mean sure, you could be paranoid and think she's a secret communist but it makes you no different than paranoid liberals that thought Romney and McCain were secret KKK members. It's really no different.

Political scholars agree with the position I'm taking, so I guess live happily in your reality but know that it is yours.

You are left when you take up left of center principles and you are right when you take up right of center principles, period.

If your argument is that the center for America is on the right (which is what I've been saying) and that makes Obama Left in America, you are right. Which is why I said Obama would be right on the political spectrum speaking in general terms that his principles are to the right of center.

Of course, the center can change for a country, wasn't my argument. Just like Houston is North if you live in Mexico but South if you live in Oklahoma...but the actual global position doesn't change for Houston. The actual position on a general spectrum doesn't change for Obama. If he ran in Europe he'd be a strong conservative voice.

I think the site isn't a joke, I think their opinion on Obama is thought out and backed by actually talking of policies other than the usual vague dialogue of "SOCIALIST! MARXIST! COMMUNIST!!!!!" that we see here. Funnily enough, the site mocks the American right for doing this very thing. When you talk about the policies, you see that yes, Obama was economically to the right. Socially, they rated him as an authoritarian, I disagree with that but I think they are taking foreign policy in consideration there I guess I understand why they would rate him that way and why they've rated a lot of US presidents on that side of the social scale.

If you want to discuss whether Obama should be left or right, I'd like to actually hear some talk about policies and not vague mentions of it. Until then, I see no reason why I should take your word over theirs, they actually presented policies that I could look into and see that yes, these policies favored individuals and free market capitalism, thus these policies were on the right of the spectrum.

 

There will never be a "The Left's Version of Donald Trump" unless the left is stupid enough to let Kanye West run. That's how clownish Donald Trump is as a political figurehead.

If we put Kanye on the ticket in 2020 you guys have the right to say "The Left's Donald Trump".

 

Is she running for president in 2020 ? She's not the one handing out welfare to farmers with money she will borrow from the PRC and admiring a russian who still loves his Lenin statues. I'm not judging comrade Putin. They're nice statues. In my trip to Moscow in 2014, seeing those Lenin statues was an artistic experience. I wish I could have gone to the world cup.

I like cortez and many of the things she stands for not all, I'm pretty lenient on the death penalty. If you've murdered an innocent you should suffer the same fate.

I wish actual good people like Jim McIngvale ran for the Republican party, even tim tebow. I'd vote for those guys.