Here's what I wrote: While mcmark just plainly stated that what those soldiers died for was not worth dying for. I wanted to get him to admit that at least some of those families do not feel the same way that he does. As far as I can tell he has yet to admit that those families even exist...
Wow, you got me there. I don't know how to read "if they could" so I sure was confused. Point: 1. They are dead. They would probably rather be alive. 2. Your "enemies" think that Bush lied and certain evidence suggests that something was foul - really hard to prove...BUT, nontheless, your "enemies" believe that. The people about whom you are talking (brave, dead soldiers and their families who would not complain about Bush) do not think that he lied. So, uh, if it is ever proven that he lied, can you predict how they will feel? Or are you arguing that they don't care if GWB lied or misled the public/congress about the Iraq war? This, of course, is ignoring the logic of you knowing that most of them would not complain in hindsight.
giddy you have kids. I don't know their ages but could you possibly have one that might just be draft eligible in the next few years? Or could one come to you and say they wanted to enlist. Would you let them? Think clearly about what you are saying. You would not question anything about (god forbid) their death if that happened IN THIS WAR! Truly? You would say "good solider" that's my boy!? If you can, then my friend we are just different. I'm not saying there isn't something worth dying for. I'm just saying this one ain't it.
<b>rimbaud Wow, you got me there. I don't know how to read "if they could" so I sure was confused.</b> Then what in the hell was your point? <b>Point: 1. They are dead. They would probably rather be alive.</b> Well, anybody would but those closest to many/most of these dead soldiers would say that they died doing what they wanted to do, that they believed in the mission, that they were helping the Iraqi people. <b>2. Your "enemies" think that Bush lied and certain evidence suggests that something was foul - really hard to prove...BUT, nontheless, your "enemies" believe that. The people about whom you are talking (brave, dead soldiers and their families who would not complain about Bush) do not think that he lied. So, uh, if it is ever proven that he lied, can you predict how they will feel? Or are you arguing that they don't care if GWB lied or misled the public/congress about the Iraq war?</b> I don't have any enemies. Apparently many of these soldiers are satisfied with a mission to kill terrorists who love to kill innocent people and help Iraqis have a life of freedom. Is that incomprehendible? <b>This, of course, is ignoring the logic of you knowing that most of them would not complain in hindsight.</b> I only know what I hear their own families are saying about their private loss. You may remove your tongue from your cheek now.
I have a 21YO son. Until recently I had two nephews in the US Army. I still have one. The other got an honorable medical discharge from West Point-- and he regrets his separation from the service. Yes, I would let my 21,22,23,24 YO son do what he wanted to do. I don't have to like it; I don't have to think it's a good idea. At some point adults do what they feel drawn to do. The ones who are really caught in this mess are the National Guardsmen who have been pulled out of coaching shorts and handed a rifle, but in the end they accepted that possibility.
giddy, some families that have lost loved ones still support this war because they have to believe that their loved ones didn't die in vain. No one wants to believe that his or her loved ones died for oil.
What are you saying? Before the loved one died, they all believed the war was for some just cause but after dying it became about oil? If they thought it was about oil in the first place, they wouldn't have been so determined about their mission-- unless they belielve that oil is a mission worth dying for. I haven't heard too many soldiers or their families suggesting that.
Two thoughts here: McMark, I think it was a low blow to call out Giddyup's kids here. I understand these are passionate points here but I think its low to be using someone's family to make a point. I don't even have kids but if I did I imagine I would agonize over sending them to fight even in direct defense of the continental US. IMO though Giddyup you brought this some what upon yourself by claiming to know how most (not all) of the dead soldiers and or their families feel. I know for a fact that Becky Loury who's son died two weeks ago in Iraq is strongly against the war and anti-Bush. I don't know how representative she is of families who's lost loved ones but that she does show that there are families of those who don't support the war. Also I'm not about to make any claim of knowing what the dead feel. You've accused others on a few occasions of being smug and claiming special knowledge yet in this case you're doing exactly that by claiming to know how most families of dead troops feel and even what most of those dead troops feel.
I think if you look at what I was doing, I was only countering what The Critics are saying. They would have us believe that everyone who has a loved one over there fighting (much less dying) thinks that Bush is a lying SOB. I admit that there are those who do, but most of the interviews I've seen seem to reveal spouses and/or parents of deceased soldiers talking proudly of their soldiers brave service and dedication to the mission and implied support of the president's policies. I don't think it takes special knowledge to form an impression. I'm only summing up what I see, hear and read-- I'm not channeling anybody.
Sishir point taken. giddy I apologize. But giddy what would you have them do? Of course they are going to put on a brave face and honor their loved ones as best they can. But you cannot convince me that they privately don't harbor any anger or sadness in their lose and wouldn't want some type of accountability.
That is wrong, of course. What you were actually doing was arguing that Clinton lied under oath. Then "The Critics"/"Your Enemies" argued that Bush lied to congress. You said everyone lies to congress and mc mark responded that Bush's lies cost thousands of lives. You then responded that the majority of the dead soldiers wouldn't complain about Bush. So, whose claim about soldiers' families were you initially countering?
No, but if your sources for such "news" are Faux News and The Wall Street Journal, you are getting a skewed view. You have to acknowledge the fact that you look at far more conservative sources than liberal ones and as such, you hear the GOP party line much more than you hear dissenting voices. I can't say that I know what most of the families feel depite the fact that I assume that I would be even angrier with Bush's exaggerations if my son were in the military. I realize that projecting that feeling on others is intellectually dishonest.
6 more fake Downing Street memos are released this last weekend, bringing the total to 8. Why do the Brits hate America? D*mn I though they were our mindless allies in GWB's Axis of the Willing (tm). AP story here: http://www.boston.com/news/world/eu...ly_leaked_memos_add_to_debate_on_war_motives/
Faking a few more memos should not be a hard thing to do. It is interesting that these memos were not all released at once. Maybe the fake memo writers wanted to drag this story on and on. What a bunch of Br*t*sh B*st*rds!!! They are going French on us.
<b>mc mark Sishir point taken. giddy I apologize.</b> I was not offended. It was a fair question. <b>But giddy what would you have them do? Of course they are going to put on a brave face and honor their loved ones as best they can. But you cannot convince me that they privately don't harbor any anger or sadness in their lose and wouldn't want some type of accountability.</b> I don't agree. Some who have lost loved ones have lashed out; some have not. The problem is that you just expect everyone to lash out and they, for lack of a better term, disappoint you when they don't. You are failing to accept the premise that some people have a commitment that you are not willing to make-- and that's your right... but so is it their right. Of course, they are sad at the loss of a loved one.
As I told you once, I don't have Enemies. "Everyone lies to Congress" was a quip. I was countering mcmark's propensity to insinuate that the family and spouse of every fallen soldier would/should be anti-Bush. I have not seen that demonstrated; in fact I would say that most are still firmly in the president's camp. Obviously there are some who feel differently. It doesn't make sense that I woud be countering my own claims...
