i was raised catholic and my entire family is catholic. i was an altar boy (no jokes please). baptized, confession, communion, confirmation...but i dont consider myself one anymore. the sex abuse has nothing to do w/ that though, just wanted to give my background before answering. it should not make catholics question their faith, but it should make them question the infrastructure of the church. i dont think it does for catholics. the ones i know see them as isolated incidents. i think many refuse to see how pervasive this stuff has been in the church - its easier to just dismiss it as 'a few bad apples' when that clearly is not the case. of course these pedophiles should be in jail. any bishop who was involved in a cover-up or any priest who knew about other priests molesting kids should be brought up on charges too. and if the pope knew about this they should issue an arrest warrant for him too. but as widespread as this is, i dont think its fair to criticize individual catholics for continuing to go to mass. you cant take away someones relationship to god (act of going to mass) and all the communal family traditions that comes with it b/c of a bunch of dirty criminal perverts.
but when child abusers get caught they go to jail...they dont get transferred to other churches and the authorities dont sweep it under the rug.
The infallibility of the Pope is very limited. glynch, IIRC, posted a very good explanation of that earlier. Most Catholics I know question the Pope's directives on Church doctrine, etc as much as people do any leader of any organization. This is not what I have seen. A good many Catholics are very disturbed by this. My Dad, who virtually never misses Mass, has said over and over again that this problem is very real and must be addressed. He believes that when a molester is found, they should be handed to the authorities for prosecution. He also believes that priests should marry. A lot of my Catholic friends believe likewise.
Intimidated ... Petty Gossip !? How about answering some very legitimate questions Pope. _____ Catholic Church will not be intimidated by sex abuse claims, Pope says Pope Benedict XVI began Holy Week yesterday by suggesting in his Palm Sunday address that the Catholic Church would "not be intimidated" by the sex scandals sweeping it. In a clear sign that the Vatican continues to insist the abuse claims are part of a conspiracy, the Pontiff, 82, said yesterday: "From God comes the courage not to be intimidated by petty gossip." He did not mention directly the crisis that has seen claims from Ireland, Germany, Austria, Holland and Brazil of abuse by clergy, but his message appeared clear. The scandal had not deterred thousands of pilgrims from flocking to St Peter's Square to applaud him. Last week the Vatican's newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano, said the allegations were part of an "ignoble attempt to strike at Pope Benedict XVI and his closest collaborators". In his address, the Pope added: "Christ guides us towards goodness and does not let us be disarmed by ingratitude." He also spoke of how man can sometimes "fall to the lowest, vulgar levels". The Pope faced accusations over the weekend of covering up child abuse after it emerged he had been present at a meeting where Church officials decided to allow an alleged paedophile priest to continue working. He has been drawn into the scandal, with claims he knew about American Father Lawrence Murphy, a priest suspected of molesting boys between 1950 and 1975, and a German one, Father Peter Hullerman. As Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger he was involved in the decision to send Father Hullermann, accused of abusing boys, to Munich for therapy. He was allowed to return to pastoral duties just days later. Hullermann was eventually convicted in 1986. The church has insisted the then Cardinal Ratzinger was unaware of the decision to allow Hullerman to return to pastoral work. But reports on Friday claimed he was included on a memo stating that this would be the case. The Vatican has vehemently denied any cover-up and defended the Pope. His spokesman Father Federico Lombardi said the Pontiff's response to the abuse crisis had been "effective" and that he had always followed a policy of "zero tolerance". Speaking on Vatican Radio Father Lombardi added that that the response of the Church was "crucial" and said:"This question of sexual abuse by members of the Catholic clergy has continued to be widely covered in the North American and European media. "It is no surprise that the nature of the argument because of the media attention and the way the Church tackles it, is crucial for its moral credibility." Father Lombardi then stressed that because of the Church's education of priests, cases of abuse in America had dropped by 30 per cent and that cases emerging now were "from decades ago." The leader of the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales said there was "no strong reason" for the pope to resign despite protesters gathering in London calling for him to step down. Speaking on BBC's Andrew Marr Show, Vincent Nichols, the Archbishop of Westminster, said: "The Pope will not resign. Frankly there's no strong reason for him to do so. "In fact it's the other way around -he is the one above all else who has tackled these things." The pope is due to visit Britain in September, but almost 10,000 people have signed a petition calling for Gordon Brown to criticise him over his role in the scandal. Last week Bishop John Magee, an Irish bishop who served as the private secretary to three successive popes - Paul VI, John Paul I and John Paul II, stepped down after revelations that the Church in Ireland covered up decades of abuse against children by priests. The Pope apologised in a seven-page letter to Irish victims earlier this month, but was criticised for failing to mention the apology at his weekly Vatican appearance. link
There have been several antipopes, where people didn't like the pope and elected a new one, but the old one hung around and it got really awkward. And even then it hasn't happened for 500 years. There is a book called The Bad Popes. In comparison to some of them, Ratzinger's hands are pretty clean.
this is funny, I used to be a bank teller and I had a customer who ran a church, and I used to think the guy was gay, but I really didn't care. until one day he came up with some story to ask for my phone number, and i'm like why do you want my number. then he got all defensive about his reason and i'm like whatever, I didn't care. I was about 24 at the time. I didn't care until he came into the bank with these two young boys who looked to be in their early teens. [disclaimer] this isn't a gay people are more likely to be molestors post[/dislaimer] I've always worried about what that guy was doing with those two kids
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8601084.stm Pope's preacher compares abuse row to anti-Semitism Pope Benedict's personal preacher has compared criticism of the pontiff and Church over child abuse to "collective violence" suffered by the Jews. The Rev Raniero Cantalamessa was speaking at Good Friday prayers in St Peter's Basilica, attended by the Pope. In his sermon, he quoted a Jewish friend as saying the accusations reminded him of the "more shameful aspects of anti-Semitism". His comments angered Jewish groups and those representing abuse victims. Father Cantalamessa said Jews throughout history had been the victims of "collective violence" and drew a comparison with recent attacks on the Roman Catholic Church. He read the congregation part of a letter from a Jewish friend who said he was "following with disgust the violent and concentric attacks against the Church, the Pope... "The use of stereotypes, the shifting of personal responsibility and guilt to a collective guilt remind me of the most shameful aspects of anti-Semitism," he quoted from the letter. Father Cantalamessa, the preacher to the papal household, is the only person allowed to preach to the Pope. The BBC's David Willey, in Rome, says the comments show the Church is continuing to defend itself rigorously and outspokenly against accusations of having systematically covered up cases of sexual abuse by priests in recent decades. Vatican spokesman the Rev Federico Lombardi later contacted the Associated Press news agency to say Father Cantalamessa was not speaking as a Vatican official. He said such a comparison could "lead to misunderstandings and is not an official position of the Catholic Church". But Stephan Kramer, general-secretary of Germany's Central Council of Jews, described the remarks as offensive and repulsive. "So far I haven't seen St Peter's burning, nor were there outbursts of violence against Catholic priests," he said. "I'm without words. The Vatican is now trying to turn the perpetrators into victims." Peter Isely, spokesman for the US victim support group Snap, said the sermon had been "reckless and irresponsible". He said: "They're sitting in the papal palace, they're experiencing a little discomfort, and they're going to compare themselves to being rounded up or lined up and sent in cattle cars to Auschwitz? "You cannot be serious." Rabbi Gary Greenebaum, of the American Jewish Committee, called Father Cantalamessa's comments "an unfortunate use of language". "The collective violence against the Jews resulted in the death of six million, while the collective violence spoken of here has not led to murder and destruction, but perhaps character assault," he said. Pope accused The Roman Catholic Church has been embroiled in fresh allegations of child sex abuse by priests, most recently in Germany. The Pope has been accused of failing to take action against a suspected abuser during his tenure as archbishop of Munich - a claim the Vatican strongly denies. Critics also say that when he was head of the Vatican office dealing with sex abuse, he did not act against a US priest who is thought to have abused some 200 deaf boys. Thousands of pilgrims are in Rome for the Easter rituals. Following the service at St Peter's Basilica, the Pope went to Rome's Colosseum for the Way of the Cross procession commemorating Christ's crucifixion. During the procession, the Pope spoke briefly about the evening's religious observances before blessing the crowd, prompting cheers and some shouts of "Long live the Pope". On Saturday, he is to lead an Easter vigil service in St Peter's and on Sunday he is due to deliver his traditional Urbi et Orbi - to the city and the world - message and blessing.
“It’s not the crime that gets you… it’s the cover up.” _____ Papalgate: The Pope's Nixon Problem The ever-widening scandal over Pope Benedict XVI’s handling of Church sex abuse cases has an eerily familiar ring: it's unfolding in much the same way that Watergate played out for Richard Nixon. Each day brings new revelations, to which the Pope and his supporters respond with carefully crafted explanations and pointed counterattacks. Is this Watergate with holy water? Here’s a look at some of the ways in which Pope Benedict XVI has found himself caught up in a scandal of Nixonian proportions… What Did He Know and When Did He Know It? During the Watergate hearings, Senator Howard Baker famously posed the question that came to define the case against Richard Nixon: "What did the President know and when did he know it?" There’s ample evidence that Nixon had no prior knowledge of the Watergate break-in. So the crucial question became, What did Nixon do once he found out about White House involvement in the crime? Pope Benedict XVI currently faces the same question: What did he know about the sexual abuse and when did he know it? The answer in each of the cases is, at least for now, ambiguous. The Pope received internal correspondence from bishops in Wisconsin about Rev. Lawrence C. Murphy, a priest who molested as many as 200 deaf boys. The bishops warned that failing to act on the matter could embarrass the church and leave it open to legal action. But the pedophile priest was never defrocked. The Vatican insists that the Pope had “no knowledge” of the correspondence—the same words Richard Nixon regularly used to describe his innocence in the Watergate affair. It’s Not the Crime, It’s the Cover-up On the Watergate tapes, Nixon himself declared, “It’s not the crime that gets you… it’s the cover up.” He understood that he probably could have survived the Watergate scandal if only he had admitted White House involvement early on instead of covering his tracks. The nation might have forgiven Nixon for mismanaging his campaign, but not for obstructing justice. Similarly, the Pope’s greatest liability is not so much the sexual crimes committed by priests—terrible as those are—but his actions following the crime. In one case, a German priest, Rev. Peter Hullerman was ordered into therapy after repeatedly molesting young boys. Hullerman was then transferred to another parish, where he continued to molest boys. Supporters of the Pope blame the transfer on a close associate, Rev. Gerhard Gruber, but it remains unclear whether the Pope may have played some role in the priest’s re-assignment. Shoot the Messenger As the Watergate crisis deepened, Nixon went on the offensive, attacking the institution he believed was out to get him – the media. “The press is the enemy,” he told his aides. On the Watergate tapes, Nixon can be heard griping to chief of staff H.R. Haldeman, “Do you think, for Christ's sake, that the New York Times is worried about all the legal niceties? Those sons of b****es are killing me.” The Vatican’s counterattack on the media has already begun in earnest. In a Palm Sunday address, the Pope declared he won’t be “intimidated by petty gossip”or allow “ignoble attempts” to tarnish his name. The Vatican newspaper, Osservatore Romano, lashed out at the media as well, declaring in an editorial, "The prevalent tendency in the media is to ignore the facts and stretch interpretations.” New York Archbishop Timothy Dolan went even further, asserting in a sermon that the Pope is being persecuted by the media, and is “suffering from the same unjust accusation and shouts of the mob as Jesus did.” The Dangers of Infallibility Richard Nixon’s biggest mistake was that he considered the office of the President to be above the law. “When the President does it,” he famously declared during a 1977 interview with David Frost, “that means that it is not illegal.” He contended that a President can rightfully order an illegal act if he deems it to be in the best interest of the country. But the Supreme Court, in United States v. Nixon, ruled that no one, not even the President, is above the law. The Pope is often said to possess even more sweeping authority: papal infallibility. But the doctrine of papal infallibility is widely misunderstood, even by Catholics. The doctrine does not hold that the Pope is infallible in everything he says—only on specific matters of dogma. The invocation of papal infallibility is extremely rare. Indeed, it hasn’t been called upon since 1950 when Pope Pius XII defined the Assumption of Mary into heaven as an article of faith for Roman Catholics. Nothing the Pope has said or done in the sex abuse scandal is covered by the doctrine of papal infallibility. Yet the belief that the head of the Catholic Church cannot make a mistake persists. *If the Church fails to back away from that notion, then Pope Benedict could face the same fate as Richard Nixon – a long and bitter fight, followed by resignation. link
Donny, you and I both know that is my shtick. You are totally molesting my trademark on this board. Even using the same picture! On Topic: As a Catholic and as a Youth Minister I see that the youth are a fundamental portion of our Faith, and are treated as such. I equate the molestation charges as this: Gay men turned to the Church as a means of dealing with their sexuality. In turning to Priesthood they may have originally taken their vows as a way of purging their carnal desires by essentially "marrying" Christ and sacrificing wordly pleasure. In believing that abstinence will clean their heart, and the power of faith will keep that heart pure, they can overcome the temptation. However as time passes the homosexual priest is inundated with his temptation...little young boys who are taught by their parents to look at the Priest AS a hand of God himself, an extension of Jesus. Knowing this, the child will automatically trust fully the Priest, leaving himself in a vulnerable position. When temptation grows too strong bad things can and often do happen. While I am not saying the priests should go unpunished...I do see what they are facing when it comes to temptation. I was once addicted to pain killers and subsequently am now on a very strict and controlled regimen. I am still an addict, but have to only take 2 a day...no more no less...yet every day I see the full bottle behind a cabinet and know where the key is...it is tempting. I feel the Catholic Church is doing what any major institution does...protecting its own. It is a poor practice and one that will end in this new era of personal accountability. The Police do it all the time when it comes to covering up for their own. I pray daily for those effected and I hope these crimes against the innocent are ending. Happy Easter!
I equate the molestation charges as this: Gay men turned to the Church as a means of dealing with their sexuality. Happy Easter! _____ Uh-oh.
Abuse hotline set up by Catholic Church in Germany melts down on first day as 4,000 people phone in An abuse hotline set up by the Catholic Church in Germany melted down on its first day of operation as more than 4,000 alleged victims of paedophile and violent priests called in to seek counselling and advice. The numbers were far more than the handful of therapists assigned to deal with them could cope with. In the end only 162 out of 4,459 callers were given advice before the system was shut down. Andreas Zimmer, head of the project in the Bishopric of Trier, admitted that he wasn't prepared for "that kind of an onslaught'. The hotline is the Church's attempt to win back trust in the face of an escalating abuse scandal that threatens the papacy of German-born Pontiff Benedict XVI in Rome. Earlier this week it was alleged that an ally of the Pope, Bishop Mixa, beat children - a charge he has subsequently denied. Former girls and boys testified that he beat them with fists and a carpet beater which screaming; 'The devil is in you and I will drive him out!' Also, the bishopric of Trier reported that 20 priests are suspected of having sexually abused children between the 1950s and 1990s. Bishop Stephan Ackermann, who was appointed last year, said on Monday that three of the cases had been passed on to public prosecutors, with two more soon to follow. German media are calling the scandal 'the hour of the children'. Silent, often for decades after pressure was applied to both them and their families by the Church, they are now finding the courage to speak out. The effect on the Catholic Church in Germany has been profound; people are leaving in droves, de-registering with the government department that levies an annual tax of 800 pounds each on worshippers to fund it. A quarter of Catholics in Germany said in a recent survey they had lost faith in the Church leadership. Pope Benedict XVI allegedly knew about one particularly disturbing paedophile case in the United States. The Rev. Lawrence Murphy spent years molesting children at a school for the deaf in Wisconsin, but when the case came to the attention of the Vatican many years later, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, then led by Cardinal Ratzinger before he became pope, declined to take action. The pope made no mention of the scandal during his pre-Easter mass at the Vatican yesterday. link
I've seen a black man elected president. A leftist elected president in El Salvador. It's time for change in vatican city..long overdue. Oscar maradiaga for pope!! Si se puede, yes we can!
