I understand that there's a need to overpay to get a name pitcher. But I don't understand why exactly. Seriously, no one goes to a game to watch Pettitte thorw soft toss for a half of a season. A HALF OF A SEASON! We're not talking an entire year, we're talking HALF of a season. My question is this - why not just replace the $16 million dollar Pettitte and his 4.20 ERA and 1.40 WHIP with the $350,000 Fernando Nieve his 4.20 ERA and his 1.33 WHIP...oh yeah, and he's 10 years younger? - - Ok ok - I know Nieve has never thrown 200 innings but at some point, Hirsh, Albers, Bucholtz, Nieve, Patton, etc.. will have to learn how to do it. Taylor's era was high (As he learns to pitch) but his BAA and WHIP are GREAT! He's got nasty stuff but we want to trade him for a guy who allows more ding dongs than a hooker. Seriously, is Pettitte going to provide $15.5 million dollars more worth of production than Nieve? Why not let Jason and Taylor learn how to pitch and spend our money on another bat? I don't have a problem with trading for a #2 but let's go after a Peavy or Johnson from Florida. Why Jason Jennings? ONE GOOD YEAR! Hirsh AND Buckholtz AND Taveras for a guy in Garland who gives up ding dongs like Pettitte did? Oh yeah, and he costs $10 million too. Make a trade for a solid number 2 and let the kids find their way with this new 'teacher' that we have as a pitching coach. Pettitte at $16 mill for the Yanks is a JOKE! Enjoyed the soft toss and good 2nd halves Andy but you're not worth $16 mill! Let's move on...
I agree that part of the "allure" of having Andy and Roger was that, in addition to their accomplishments on the field, they brought this team the sort of national exposure they had NEVER seen in the last 20 years. Now, the Astros will have to not only WIN... but win in the playoffs without these guys... to make anybody take notice. Roy and Lance are going to have the quietest Cy Young/MVP seasons of notice (while the media harps on every one of Pettite's killer "cutters"). Going with the young kids in the rotation reminds me of the "plan b" in 2005 of going with the young kids in the lineup.
I agree, Doc. Besides, that slow curve with a suspect elbow worries me. I also think that The Rocket is a liability, because even with his half season of 5 to 7 innings, he looked tired at the end. Besides those innings play havoc with our bullpen. I think the AP/RC era is over.
i still get the feeling that pettite is underrated here. i'm glad we didn't pay 16 million though. that said, we can not stand pat and go the youngster route. yeah they could all pan out but after spending so much already we have to get one more solid top end of the rotation guy to make me feel good about the offseason. our offense should be improved but it's not elite. if we don't have the pitching depth close to what we've had in the past it's not going to be pretty.
Funny you say this when it's Buchholz that gives up the long ball. Garland gave up 26 homers in 211 innings. Buchholz gave up 21 in 113 innings. You can have a great WHIP and all the other secondary numbers, but if you give up home runs like that you're going to get lit up. And he did. Actually, keeping the ball in the park was the single factor victimizing all of our young pitchers that struggled last season. Hirsh gave up 11 in 44 innings (ouch), Wandy 17 in 135 innings, Nieve 18 in 96 innings.
Taylor had incredible games and games that he got flamed hard and early. If he gets consistent he is a horse. Andy messed up by saying he was not sure if he wanted to play or not. I'm sure Roger influenced that. How are you gonna say I'm not sure if I want to play then demand 2 years?
I've said basically what Doc said for the last couple of weeks. In addition, Andy has lost all credibility with me if he demanded 2 years on his contract. I know it's a money business but then Andy shouldn't pretend it's something else.
Thank you !! This is exactly what I have been saying. Let Petitte go, he is not worth all that money, he played 1 good year out of 3....one. Now, if it helped get Roger, I understand, but I think the Astros played lackidasically last year just hoping to hold on until Roger got there and then they figured they would take off. It blew up in their face. Woody Williams (whom I think is ok, but not great) is better than Petitte, so goodbye Andy, thanks for the hometown discount, I hope to see you in the World series, because the Astros lineup will hammer that junk you toss up there. As for Roger, I hope the team moves on without him, and if he decides he wants to pitch half a year...then pursue him....but tell the team, that the Astros are going to war with what they have. DD
My write-in to Richard Justice yesterday: So Richard, How does a "hometown hero" and "family man" go from contemplating retirement to DEMANDING a two year deal and uprooting his family again in the span of about a week? Why don't you mention the fact that much of the difference between the two teams' offers will be eaten by NY state & NYC income taxes? Why no mention of Cashman's indication that they were prepared to offer even more money to Pettite to ensure the deal got done. If the Astros said okay to $14 mill and the Yanks then offered $18 mill, would you still dog Drayton? Sure, Hendricks said that they would have taken the $14 mill from the Astros, but do YOU believe him? After all, is this not the same man that you had some pretty choice words for just a day or two ago? Also, why not talk about how the Garland talks (which you so effusively praise Purpura for pursuing while he talked to Pettite), affected things. You read the NY Post today? Here's a quote from your friend Mr. Hendricks: ""The aborted Garland trade proves they had no intention of increasing their offer, so there was nothing more to wait for except a decision by Andy, which he made this afternoon," Hendricks said." So Richard, think maybe the Garland deal ticked Andy off a little bit? This was not about Drayton being cheap. This was about a good, but againg (maybe even fragile) athlete getting called on his hometown/family man BS and on his childish delay tactics.
You can't seriously expect Nieve/Bucholz/ Hirsh/ Albers to replace Pettite's production. Pettite has 30+ wins and 400+ innings the past two years. Pitchers like that are hard to come by, not to mention that Pettite is one of the best postseason pitchers ever. Maybe Pettite isn't worth the $14 mil he was asking for, but we overpaid for Carlos Lee. Pitching wins ballgames. We got to the World Series with Pettite being a main part of our rotation. You say make a trade for a solid #2. LIKE WHO!?
Great points, all. Pettite was worth fihting for and they didn't! Now let's see how much they give away to cover their tracks. Buchholz, Taveras and Hirsch is probably to much to give up for some one who is not a true stud pitcher. I too want to see the youngs guys get a chance and believe that at least two of our half a dozen or so young pitchers can do good things this year. Now that package for Andruw Jones................. I just hope that we don't give the ranch away to win this year. We have enough to make it interesting and fun this year.
DD, I respect your views on the Astros but no way is Woody Williams in the same class as Pettitte. Look they really screwed up IMO, they could of had Andy for less than the Yankees and that's a fact. It's my opinion (not fact) that Andy wanted to stay in Houston and finish his career but the Astros brass pissed Andy and his agents off. I will never argue with someone who says 14 million is too high for Andy (not 16 that's what the yanks paid we would of been 14) but when you factor in the lack of free agent pitchers out there and the FACT that when you make a trade YOU MUST GIVE UP PLAYERS than this whole thing does not add up. THIS WAS A PAYROLL MOVE, that's why I did not want Lee because I know how the Astros think and that thinking is always some artificial budget that they make up when it should be the luxery tax since we are a LARGE MARKET (that's right were not some mid market team like drayton want's you to belive) This old country bumpkin just does not get it and never will if he would of just paid Pettitte Roy O Pettitte Clemens Williams Who ever steps up Hirsh/Buckholtz/Sampson Now Roy O Williams Hirsh Buckholtz Sampson/wandy/nieve? Don't forget about some of the stud bats like Everret, Ausmus, Lane and Biggio that will sure carry us with our young pitching Sigh, it's hard being a lifelong Astro fan
Where did he demand 2 years? He got offered two years. Are you seriously suggesting that he should just not take an extra $18MM just to make Houston happy? This is a business, not a charity.
At this point in their careers...Williams and Petitte are a wash, IMHO. I think the Astros are going to be better this year....a lot better....Petitte was not bad all year, but he was HORRIBLE in the first half of last year. We need a strong first half to set the team up, these comebacks are nice, but wouldn't it have been nice to have won 3 more game early last year? DD
I want us to trade for someone like Dontrelle. I'm sick of hearing talk about garbage like Jennings or Garland.
That's just going to cost too much. A bunch of prospects and money. And his statistics weren't that much better than Pettitte's last year.
But you make it sound like he hadn't talked to the Yankees before they made their offer, that the Yankees just decided to be charitable and give him a <I>player</I> option that he didn't ask for. None of us know, but the second year was likely a requirement by Pettite. The funniest thing was one of the Hendrick's saying that everyone knows that Andy wouldn't play if he got hurt. What a crock. I'm torn on the whole thing ... if Roger is really a package deal with Andy, I think it's a mistake. But Pettitte alone I don't think this is too huge of a deal. I can't see him getting too many more commercials in Houston What a shame though that they FINALLY add that bat ... and they lose what made the team special in the first place -- their starting pitching strength.
I would think it played out a bit differently. The Yankees were interested, but Andy preferred Houston. Thus, they had to offer more. They tried more money for 1 year, it didn't convince him. So they offered a second year - now he has to seriously consider that. He goes back to Houston and asks for the same, and no dice, so he takes the Yankees' over. That seems like the most logical way it would have played out, especially given the articles that were written after the Lilly signing saying the Yankees would be willing to do what's necessary to get him. This is what's most frustrating to me. I think people take for granted how much easier having the Oswalt/Pettitte/Clemens trio made things for the whole team. It helped the pen, took pressure off the offense, helped reduce losing streaks, etc. Thinking Woody Williams or whatnot can filll in and do the same is just not realistic. I find it discouraging that we're willing to overpay Carlos Lee, but not Andy Pettitte. Lee can be expected to provide 30-35 HRs, 100-120 RBIs, and a 0.850 or so OPS for $17 MM / year. Huff, who could have played the same position, provides about 28-30 HRs, 100 RBIs, and an 0.820 OPS for $8MM / year, and apparently might be too expensive for us now. We seemed to have gotten so focused on Lee that we blew up the budget and now it's costing us in all sorts of other ways. I'd much rather have Huff ($8MM), Pettitte ($14MM), Willy T, Buchholz, (maybe Hirsh depending on the deal), and $6MM to play with than Lee ($17MM) and Garland ($11MM), which is how it seems it may play out.
All of the guys you mention have a body of work which says more No. 3 guy than 1 or two. Check Dontrelle's career stats He is not a stud. He does not have lights out stuff. He would be a nice pickup but he is way over hyped and not worth what Florida has been asking.
This is what I meant when I said that people here seriously don't value the pitching we had... and were overjoyed with getting Lee, while simply "dissapointed" with losing Pettite (but happily saying that Woody is better than Pettite... which is ridiculous). As I see it... if the rotation stays as is (or even if we get Garland or Jennings)... the team last year was better than the one we'll have this year despite having Carlos Lee in the lineup. Andy was a quality left-handed pitcher, in a league that struggles collectively against quality left-handed pitching. Our main competition (the Cardinals and Padres) were routinely stifled by Andy the last three years. I wouldn't be suprised if the Dodgers (who gained Schmidt, and replaced Drew with Gonzo) are the team to beat in the NL next year. I would have been fine if the Stros made a similiar type of move, instead of commiting 6 years to Carlos Lee.
