Clemens moves to #2 on the all-time strikeout list

Didn't Cy win like 600+ games?

 

511 wins

749 complete games

 

If the strikeout is the signature stat for pichers, then would walks be the anti-signature stat? Ryan also holds the record for most walks by a pitcher. Does this make him the worst pitcher of all time?

 

So, what you are saying is that the object of the game is not to let the other team get on base at all. Hmmm... and the strikeout does what? It gives the batter absolutely no chance of getting on base at all. Which, as you state, is the object of the game. The batter has absolutely no hope because he can't even get his bat on the ball. And yet somehow that is relayed to me as insignificant. Is that not the object of the game as you describe it.

All you did is flag some exaggerated stat for one game which is meaningless, because when you look at Great pitchers you look at their carrer. Look at pitchers with 3,000 k's you'll find that almost all of them have low era, low ba against, and low everything. you ask who the hell cares? I do. Averaging 9 k's per game as you detailed in your example gives you the best chance to keep people off the bases. Average 9k's per inning over 15 years and bet you'll find yourself in the Hall of Fame.

 

I'd think the anti stat would be Home Runs. Not walks. And I bet you'll find many of the wosrt pitchers in recent memory on that list. But on the walks list, you'll find many hall of famers.

 

Funny thing is, often a high strikeout pitchers will surrender more than their fair share of hr's because they tend to challenge hitters more often. Schilling is one example...

 

i never said they're insignificant. i never, ever said that. i said you can't simply say, "this guy struck out a lot of other batters, so he must be the best."

nolan ryan is not considered among the top 10 pitchers of all time, generally. if you gave me a choice of ryan's career or maddux's career, i'd take maddux's every day of the week and twice on sunday. but in no way was he an overpowering strikeout pitcher. if you look at clemens numbers, even aside from strikeouts, he has clearly had a better career than nolan.

that's not knocking ryan...he was awesome and one of my favorites.

 

Why does Ryan get **** on so much? His era compared to everyone else on the strikeout list is very comparable. He had a 3.19 era for his career. He also is number one all time with an opponent batting average of .204. That is unbelievable especially over the time span that he pitched. Most pitchers are dominate for only a specific amount of time. Ryan was dominating well into his 40's. He averaged 10 strikeouts per 9 innings for 27 years. I turn 27 this August. That is a long damn time to throw a little baseball passed professional atheletes. As for wins, can you imagine how many wins he would have had if he had run support and been on decent teams through out his whole career?

Walter Johnson pitched from 1907-1927. Who here was alive then? Who here ever saw the competition from back then? I still find it absolutely ridiculous that you could say he was the greatest of all time when you have never seen the dude pitch. Have you ever seen one single pitch that he threw? Even on ESPN or whatever? I havent. What kind of pitches did he throw? What kind of velocity did he have? You wouldnt know unless you look it up because you have never seen him.

 

What numbers are you talking about?????

Nolan Clemens
Wins 324 316
Losses 292 160
ERA 3.19 3.18
Games 807 613
GS 773 612
CG 222 117
Shutout 61 46
Saves 3 0
IP 5386.0 4317.0
Hits 3923 3703
Runs 2178 1682
ER 1911 1526
HR 321 324
HBP 158 142
BB 2795 1396
SO 5714 4140

Please tell me what in these numbers clearly show that Clemens is a better pitcher than Nolan Ryan.

 

Clemens has a better WHIP, ERA, K/BB ratio, and winning percentage. Ryan has a better K/9 innings. Since Clemens is going to give up fewer runs, allow fewer baserunners, and win a higher percentage of his games, not to mention having pitched his entire career until this season in the stronger offensive league, I would say that makes him a better pitcher. That doesn't even take into account the fact that teams are scoring a lot more now. There is a reason the the Rocket has 6 Cy Young awards and an MVP.

 

Nolan Ryan pitched 20 seasons before Roger Clemens broke in to the majors, in an era when offense was down. Clemens's numbers are far superior to the average pitcher of his own time which is the best way to see how good of a pitcher he has been. The league average ERA for Ryan's career was 3.57 and his was 3.19. Roger Clemens' career ERA is 3.19 also, but the league average for his career is 4.48. That tells me that the difference between Roger and his contemporaries is much greater. Here are Tom Seaver's stats, since he was a contemporary of Ryan. Seaver had a career era of 2.86 against the league average of 3.64. An out is an out, the pitcher's main goal is not allowing runs. The method in he which he accomplishes it is meaningless. Tom Seaver was better at preventing runs than Nolan Ryan, his contemporary. Seaver struck out 2,074 fewer batters than Ryan did, but he still averaged fewer baserunners per year in his career than Ryan did because he had much better control. All those strikeouts and Ryan's ERA was still higher. Seaver was a better pitcher than Ryan because he was better at preventing run and we can easily compare them since the played during the same time. There's no logical way to argue that Ryan is the greatest pitcher ever.

 

Ryan lead his league in ERA only twice (Clemens 6x)

never lead his league in wins (Clemsns 4x)

never won a Cy Young (Clemens 6x)


those 3 reason right there are why Clemens is clearly better than Ryan

 

I seem to remember that Nolan was rarely a staff ace. I know he played second fiddle to Scott in the 86-88 timeframe.

Again..I'm not trying to say that Nolan isn't a good pitcher. He was a fantastic pitcher. But you can't throw up raw numbers and draw conclusions....eras of baseball have changed so much, i think you can only judge a player relative to how well he performed among his contemporaries....

which leads me back to Babe Ruth!

 

Although I understand the theory of comparing a pitcher to his contemporaries, and it makes perfect sense, it doesn't appear to me those statistics are reliable. With the addition of extra teams... there is a dilution of bad pitchers and bad hitters over that time period that would seem to make that comparison unreliable. But that is pure opinion on my part at this point.

 

I agree Clemons' career will be regarded as better than Nolan's. The ERA argument does it for me.

However, wins are inextricably tied to run support to a degree. I would be curious to see each's run support. Again, to an extent, the Cy's are linked to wins which are linked to run support.

I think Nolan, if memory serves me, led the league in ERA and strikeouts one year and still finished, like, around .500. That's crazy. That being said, overall, Clemons is just a freak he's been so good.

No pitcher's were more fun to watch though than Nolan and J.R. Richard. I was just a kid, but they were just sick. How would you like to be on the opposing team and have to see Nolan on Friday, change the pace to Joe Neikro on Saturday, then have to come back and face J.R. on Sunday........

 

The problem with your stats is that you lack context. Not only was Nolan playing in an era of lower scoring, he also pitched in the ultimate pitcher's park(Astrodome) for quite a while. Meanwhile, look at Clemens, who pitched in hitters parks and in the AL, where scoring is higher due to the DH. Surely you don't look at the extra 132 losses by Ryan(as opposed to just 8 more wins), and say that it's all due to the fault of his hitters.

The problem with Ryan is walks. Sure, he had a low BA against, but each of those hits hurt him more because there tends to be men on base when they happen. That's the problem with walks.

There's a stat called ERA+, which measures how a pitcher's ERA stacks up to the rest of the league. A ERA+ of 100 indicates that the pitcher is exactly league average. This will provide the context needed to differentiate the pitchers.

Ryan's ERA+ for his career is 112. His best ERA+ years were 191(in 1981), 142(in 1987), 141(in 1977), and 138(in 1991).

Clemens ERA+ for his career is 140, which is basically the average of Ryan's 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best seasons. His top ERA+ years were 227(in 1997) 211(in 1990), 177(in 1994), and 176(in 1998).

So if you compare Clemens and Ryan with their peers, it's easy to see why Clemens is considered one of the best pitchers in baseball history, but Ryan won't make the top 10.

 

Yet Nolan Ryan leads the poll

 

they need to change the name of the trophy to

Ryan-Clemens trophy

 

I was at the game last night. WOW!!!!

Felt good to be a part of history. I took a *few* photos that I thought I would share.



K#1 - Kendall in the 1st Inning



K#2 - Wells in the 2nd Inning



K#3 - Mondeski in the 3rd Inning



K#4 - Wilson in the 3rd Inning



K#5 - Wells in the 4th Inning (ties Carlton)



Cool #4136 display on the big board

 

K#6 - Mondesi in the 5th Inning (passes Carlton)



#4137 display on the big board



Ausmus tosses the ball off the field



Clemens soaks up the standing O



K#7 - Clemens finishes off Wilson for good measure



Clemens walks off at the end of the 5th to another standing O



Cool Ryan/Clemens sign on the big board



Too everyone's amazement, Clemens comes out to bat in the 6th (another standing O)



Dotel strikes out Nunez to end an awesome evening