Can you be a Christian and Support the Death Penalty?

I'd like to point out that the actual spelling is "pedophilia". Kinda hurts your status as Grammarian in Chief when you attempt to correct other people's misspellings with those of your own. Borracho!

BORRACHOWNED

Last I checked, this thread was about the death penalty. You took the liberty of inserting pre-emptive wars, pedophilia (did I spell that right?) and other unrelated crimes into the thread in an effort to mock Christians and goad them. You seem to show persistent anger towards Christians in your posts. If not anger, then certainly nose-thumbing haughtiness. Why divert the thread to pedophilia, if not to smear Christians? Borracho!

 

Cool, Jorge. We both misspelled pedophilia. We are both fallable humans under God.

I didn't divert the thread to pedophilia, as anyone with the most basic reading comprehension knows. I asked, as makes perfect sense in the context of this thread, if you could be a Christian while supporting things the Church opposes, to which I answered yes. Yes, you can support the death penalty, for example, and be a Christian, because in Christianity you have an opportunity to confess and atone for your sins, as long as you promise to never do them again.

Here's a question for you, Jorge. And please, PLEASE resist your urge to run away like usual.

Can someone with the power of the president of the United States enter the kingdom of Heaven having supported and presided over elective war and the death penalty if he has not confessed and repented those sins and promised never to do them again?

If you won't answer that question, we will all assume (as we all already do) that you couldn't care less about Christ, God or Christianity, that you are once again co-opting religion for political purposes, and that you are generally full of partisan, divisive, poo-flinging crap.

 

When terrorists come to our country and knock down the Twin Towers, we aren't starting a pre-emptive war. We are counterpunching. When Saddam was given the chance over 12 years to comply with the terms of the truce he agreed to after Persian Gulf I, we aren't starting a pre-emptive war. We are responding to his acts of defiance and threats to the safety of his citizens, neighbors, and our own land. When a President enforces the laws that were already on the books when he came into office, he isn't killing people, he is serving justice and upholding the legal process.

Again, Batman, you are deliberately distorting the situation in an attempt to point out inconsistencies between the moral code of Christians and their actions. You aren't interested in a debate, you are just interested in a chance to smear Christianity. You've had this goal for quite some time, as evidenced by your history of posting.

Now, if you will do me the favor of spell checking the above post, I would rightly appreciate it.

GOOD DAY

 

In all fairness, the ones who turns the other cheek probably go unnoticed while doing their own thing.

I think Republican leadership has mastered the tool of rousing emotions to the point where those who seek convenience and easy answers are best swayed by their disingenuous platform.

They've done a great job wedging Christian politics into an all-or-nothing proposition. It's completely blanketed any voice from liberal Christians...even if leaders from both parties are predominantly Christian.

 

Jorge,

Leaving out the fact that you continue to pursue linkage between 9/11 and Iraq where none exists (lying is a sin under Christianity too), your guys introduced the term "preemptive" into the lexicon. The fact that you now regard it as a smear is just proof that the policy was wrong. Spin all you like. You guys used to proudly defend preemption, now you regard the word you brought to the table as a smear. It would be funny if so many people hadn't died from it.

Stop saying I'm trying to denigrate Christianity or Christians or I'll report you to the moderators. I never do that. In over five years, I've probably reported one post that was from an incredible racist who isn't around anymore. I know you report every other post, but I don't. If you keep this crap up I will. You can scan through every single post I've ever posted here and you won't find anything approximating what you continually accuse me of. What you will find is that I believe the Catholic Church's stance on homosexuality is bigoted. And I do, yeah. We can debate that in another thread, but it's not anti-Christian to feel that way nor is it anti-Christianity. It's anti-that one teaching of the Church as it stands today. You will also find, if you search, that I have opposed priests screwing young boys. And when you find that, you will find that my only criticism has been of bishops who protected those priests and Christians who didn't speak out more loudly against them.

You would like to have a beer with George Bush, I know. I would like to spend ten years with Jesus Christ, soaking up every single thing I could from him. One point on which Bush and I can agree is that Christ is among my favorite philosophers and there are few (maybe no) people I'd more readily follow. And I repeat again, if Republicans actually governed as Christians, I'd be one of them. In a second.

So stop saying I'm anti-Christian. It's a lie. I know you like repeating lies over and over again and hoping they stick but this one really pisses me off.

Max, am I anti-Christian?

twhy, am I anti-Christian?

FranchiseBlade, am I anti-Christian?

Or am I just against what the Church's stance on homosexuality and their failure to rapidly respond to and punish pedophilia amongst their priests?

Jorge, I know you'd prefer to turn this into a you vs. me slimefest in which you inevitably lose and then declare victory, but how about addressing the question.

Are you a Christian? The Church has an official position. The death penalty is immoral, unethical and un-Christian and yet many American Christians support it. Discuss.

 

In fairness, the Catholic Church, which I think you are speaking of, has no moral authority over the various versions of Protestantism, nor the Eastern Orthadox Church, nor I'm sure many other varieties of Christianity that I'm sure I'm leaving out.

You seem to be misrepresenting Christianity as only Catholicism.

 

You're right. I misspoke. Let me correct myself.

I said the Church had an official position and that wasn't exactly right. Let me try again.

Jesus Christ has an official position against the death penalty.

Better?

 

It's a mixed bag, actually, Batman. God gives many approvals of capital punishment throughout the Old Testament. The flood is an example. God instituted capital punishment as a part of the Jewish law code. The thinking behind it is the belief in sactity of life. "Whoever sheds man's blood by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God, He made man." There are numerous citings of capital punishment in the Old Testament, as set forth by Mosaic Law. The Apostle Paul used capital punishment as imagery in the New Testament. Jesus' stance on capital punishment is not clear cut. He does instruct his followers to respect the authority of government and the laws of the land.

Read more below:
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/cap-pun.html

 

Interesting, Jorge. Do you have a link explaining how Jesus opposed forgiveness, as you do? Or poor people, as you do? I really could go on and on...

But before I do, retract that crap about me being anti-Christian or I'm gonna go Trader_Jorge style tattletale on your hypocritical ass.

 

I give you an actual discussion based on facts, with a link, and you give me this? You are guilty of everything that you accuse me of.

BORRACHOWNED

 

You can cut the drunk crap too, Jorge. You got nothing but slander.

One in a hundred posts that addresses the topic (and includes a link!!!) hardly makes up for the other ninety-nine, but that'd be fine if it actually addressed the core issue.

Jesus Christ was for forgiveness. You're against it.

Jesus disdained the rich and called for aid to the poor. You're diametrically opposed to both.

Jesus not only didn't believe in preemption or even self-defense, he believed in turning the other cheek. You believe 9/11 gave us license to blow up anyone we regard to be a threat whether they are one or not.

You're just about as close to both the Romans and the moneychangers as we get in this country (without being successful) and yet you try to argue in favor of Jesus Christ? You'd better get forgiven soon bud or you'll be first in line for the big weenie roast.

 

Citation please? At first glance I am upset that you presume to make the claim that there are any sorts of "official positions" that are anything less than ambiguous or contradicted by later passages. It is even more inappropriate given that you seem to classify yourself as friendly towards, but outside of that faith.

What particular qualifications give you the insight to make claims about what Jesus' "official policies" are? Are you quoting some particular Church's doctrine, or have you divined these "official policies" from the Bible while the rest of us mere mortals strugle with extracting the content of these texts?

Assuming you have no particular religious affiliation or doctrinal training, how are you any different than half the redneck yahoos in the United States who read a quote from the Qua'ran and claim that they know that Islam is a religion of hate?

From my experience, this bit of Mathew comes about as close to addressing the subjects you raise directly:

Mathew 5:17-20
[rquoter]
Do not think I have come to get rid of what is written in the Law or in the Prophets. I have not come to do that. Instead, I have come to give full meaning to what is written. What I'm about to tell you is true. Heaven and earth will disappear before the smallest letter disappears from the Law. Not even the smallest stroke of a pen will disappear from the Law until everything is completed.

Do not break even one of the least important commandments. And do not teach others to break them. If you do, you will be called the least important person in the kingdom of heaven. Instead, practice and teach these commands. Then you will be called important in the kingdom of heaven.
[/rquoter]

Translation:The rules of the Old Testament apply. My teachings don't negate the rules, only explain the ideas behind them.

Verse 21-26
[rquoter]
You have heard what was said to people who lived long ago. They were told, 'Do not commit murder.(Exodus 20:13) Anyone who murders will be judged for it.' But here is what I tell you. Do not be angry with your brother. Anyone who is angry with his brother will be judged. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' must stand trial in the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire in hell.

Suppose you are offering your gift at the altar. And you remember that your brother has something against you. Leave your gift in front of the altar. First go and make peace with your brother. Then come back and offer your gift.

Suppose someone has a claim against you and is taking you to court. Settle the matter quickly. Do it while you are still with him on your way. If you don't, he may hand you over to the judge. The judge may hand you over to the officer. And you may be thrown into prison. What I'm about to tell you is true. You will not get out until you have paid the very last penny!
[/rquoter]

Verses 38-42
[rquoter]
You have heard that it was said, 'An eye must be put out for an eye. A tooth must be knocked out for a tooth.'(Exodus 21:24; Leviticus 24:20; Deuteronomy 19:21) But here is what I tell you. Do not fight against an evil person.

Suppose someone hits you on your right cheek. Turn your other cheek to him also. Suppose someone takes you to court to get your shirt. Let him have your coat also. Suppose someone forces you to go one mile. Go two miles with him.

You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor.(Leviticus 19:18) Hate your enemy.' But here is what I tell you. Love your enemies. Pray for those who hurt you. Then you will be sons of your Father who is in heaven.

He causes his sun to shine on evil people and good people. He sends rain on those who do right and those who don't.

If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Even the tax collectors do that. If you greet only your own people, what more are you doing than others? Even people who are ungodly do that. So be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
[/rquoter]

Translation:The Old Testament talks about rules of conduct. These help you behave like a person with goodness in their heart. But what is really important to God is what actually is in your heart.

-----

Again, in the Bible I really don't see any "official policies" but rather a whole bunch of generally ambiguous stuff. The general gist as far as I am concerned is that it is improper to pursue the death penalty out of hate. Personally, I generally believe as well that Jesus would not particularly care for the death penalty.

It does seem to me that the issue is much more ambiguous for a situation like Pablo Escobar, where people tried to use prison to isolate his negative influence, but the corrupting nature of his cash prevented using prison as a tool protect society from him. In that case it seems that the concern is more whether you do what is necessary with glee or reluctantly and with sadness.

In general, perhaps you occupy a position of moral superiority in your argument with TJ. Perhaps a thorough examination of the Bible could lead you to see that it could be interpreted as you claim. It is still strikes me as fundamentally inappropriate to misrepresent the content of the Bible in defense of that position.

 

Um...hopefully this doesn't ruin the joke but...yes. Yes, I am drunk.

 

I'm 85% sure that I don't believe in anything.

Except probabilities.

 

Wow, 60% of you guys voted 'yes'. I'm guessing that's because each person is viewing the question in a slightly different way. I see the question as saying, "Is the death penalty in line with Christian values?" The answer to that is a resounding "NO".

 

Ottomaton (are you really a robot? if so, you have a great humanist program. oh, wait. maybe your name's just otto. if you were a robot, it would be auto probably. okay.):

I'm not morally superior to anybody. I don't even believe in moral superiority. And, as I understand them, Christians aren't allowed to lay that claim even if they feel it. But I don't really know too much about it. I'm not real educated that way. I just believe in treating people right, I just believe in redemption and, you know, doing my best not to break the ten commandments (I was raised up Jewish) because I generally believe them to be good rules.

This whole thing between me and Jorge broke out because MEOWGI started a thread about whether or not you could be Christian and support the death penalty -- clearly because MEOWGI felt that murder or revenge killing or whatever was un-Christian. Now, it may be that through a complicated consideration of scripture you might be proven right that even though Jesus said "turn the other cheek," that even though the whole religion based on his death was based on forgiveness, what he actually meant was "some people are unforgiveable." I don't know. Like I say, I'm not well versed in Christian theology. I thought it was about forgiveness, but I could be totally wrong. As such, I won't speak for Christians again. If Christians on this board want to stand up for the idea of forgiveness, they're on their own where I'm concerned as I'm just not educated enough to make their points for them. I am a little confused about where they are in this discussion, but maybe that's just proof I'm wrong and that actually Christ was for the death penalty.

I believe the state shouldn't kill people and Jorge thinks they should. I'm for forgiveness and redemption and Jorge is against both. I'll leave it to you guys to work out who's more religious/Christian/moral/ethical/whatever. Hey. Maybe a poll would be good.

 

You know what would be awesome though? If only Christians could vote in this poll. I would love to see a poll on the death penalty where two thirds of Christians supported it. That would be stone cold proof that Christians were against Christ. Not that I'd need that to think it. That's what I'm against, Jorge. In case you're curious.

 

p.s. To Jorge, since I know you usually have to ask a question a hundred times in hope of an answer even to still be foiled (CLUCK, CLUCK ), I repeat again:

Can someone with the power of the president of the United States enter the kingdom of Heaven having supported and presided over elective war and the death penalty if he has not confessed and repented those sins and promised never to do them again?

 

This is actually a tough subject. I support the death penalty but it is out of human weakness that I do. Christ has the compassion to forgive a child molester. I do not. When I hear about the horrible things that some of the death row inmates did to land themselves there then I tend to be slightly to the right of Larry the Cable guy when it comes to my stance on the death penalty.

But before you lump me in with the hypocrites the Old and New testaments are very firm about an OT Jew or a NT Christian adhering to the laws of the land, provided that those laws do not have you committing an act that goes against the rules of God.

And as far as no war...where are you finding that? I think you are thinking of John Lennon, not Jesus Christ, the Son of Man.

No rubbers...um last time I checked I am married to my wife so I can pretty much do anything to here that I want.

 

very well said. it also fosters the pollution of the heart of those who stay behind....we see people seemingly taking joy in the fact that "these bastards are getting what they deserve." it's hate being harbored in our hearts...and Christ says, that's as good as murder in God's eyes. you might as well have shot him in cold blood on the streets if that's what's in your heart. it still separates you from God.

none of that's easy to accept, i know. i'd be a liar if i told you that i were pure of it. but i'm trying, ringo...i'm trying real hard.