Let's start this thing off right. I like Baron Davis. I think he and Francis are comparable talents. Baron Davis is NOT having a great season. Anyone who had any fogging notion that he was an MVP candidate over the 1st half of the season is delusional. The guy is shooting 38.9% for the season. And if you think it is only because of his recent injuries that he is shooting poorly, think again. Davis' best shooting month is November, when he shot 41.7%. Not to mention, this guy is a career 64.5% free throw shooter. Forgot to talk about his stellar 31.67% 3-point shooting this season to go along with his career 32.7% 3-point shooting. Then again, Baron Davis is always going to be a better passer than Stevie. He's always going to be a better defensive player. But he'll never be the shooter/scorer that Steve is. He'll never be the rebounder than Steve. He'll never play harder than Steve. Steve is currently in the worst shooting slump in his life, yet he still manages to shoot 39.5%. Ya'll got to remember, Steve is still a lifetime 43% shooter and 34.5% shooter for downtown. The only difference between Baron and Steve this year is that Steve has lost his mojo and Baron has lost all conscience. Baron keeps jacking up shots at an alarming rate. 21.3 shots per game with 8.9 of those shots from 3-point range. 8.9 3-point shots per game from a career 32.7% 3-point shooter. That's CRAZY!!! Stojakovic is attempting a career high 7.0 3 pointers this year and he's the best shooter in the league. On a relative basis, Steve has never shot more than 17.7 shots a game for a season and never more than 4.2 from 3-point range. If you think Steve is pissing you off this season, I know damn well this board would be ripping Baron Davis just as much if he was on this team. Fact of the matter is this, Steve Francis will be on this team for the rest of the year. For us to make it and advance in the playoffs, Steve needs his mojo back and he needs to play well. Cased Closed. As it stands, if I could trade Steve Francis staight up for any point guard in the leage for JUST THE REMAINDER OF THE SEASON, there are only four I would do in a heartbeat (Kidd, Bibby, Cassell, and Marbury). Baron Davis is a push. And in most seasons, I'd take Steve over Bibby and Cassell everyday of the week and twice on Sundays. Considering this is Steve Francis' worst season of his career by far, I think that reflects very well the caliber of player that he is. I remember his first two seasons with the Rockets, people on this board wouldn't stop heaping the praise on this man. I would always post trying to temper the expectations and point out the flaws in his game. But now it seems everyone is bashing this guy and people need to remember what kind of game this guy has. A lot of times he's going to do things that makes you scratch your head. But that's no different than Sam Cassell or Vernon Maxwell back in the day. The only difference is that we won some championships and almost a decade has past. People tend to forgive and forget with those two factors. I do know Steve Francis has a lot of heart. And having a lot of heart used to matter in Houston.
I agree. I have always liked Stevie but that was quickly changing this season, especially after the Super Bowl fiasco. But, recently, I I have reversed my feelings again. It really looks like he his doing everything in his power to do help this team win. He even said last night after the game. "I like to score but passing the ball around helps the team more." That spoke volumes to me and proved that he really is more of a team player than he has portrayed and is willing to sacrifice his game to better his team. I really believe that once he gets out of this shooting slump and gets some confidence back in his shot, he will quickly become a top tier pg. One that passes first and gets his second, and with the other guys that we have, especially Yao, getting theres, that will make it that much easier for him and then this team will REALLY be hard to stop. Even with the slump I would no doubt take him over Baron.
I'll take Baron Davis' better passing and especially defensive ability over Francis' better rebounding ability and ability to create his own shot any day of the week. I see where you're coming from with the shooting percentages, but I think you've undersetimated the value of the two qualities Davis has over Francis. Personally, I think Baron Davis can create his own shot as well as Francis, but is a more disciplined player than Francis. But there are a lot of players in the league that seem more disciplined than Francis.
Great post Da Man. In years past, people would have been tarred and feathered for even trying to say that Baron Davis was on the same level as Stevie. Now all the bandwagon Houston fans are jumping on the "B. Diddy" truck... Baron's defensive skills come from the fact that he is one inch shorter but 18 lbs heavier. He's strong, and still almost as quick as Stevie. He's a marginally better defensive player one on one. His defensive reputation comes from the fact that he plays the passing lanes. A LOT. These gambles on defense get him his reputation as a great defender (see Manu Ginobili). I'll keep SF3 over BD anyday of the week. When Steve had the green light like Baron has had this season, he was still the better player.
Actions speak louder than words. Last night Steve had more FGA (and that doesn't even take into consideration the times he shot and was fouled, he also led the team in FTA) than anyone else on the team, despite shooting for a higher percentage than only 1 other starter (41% to Jackson's 40%). If he were really focused on passing the ball around over scoring, wouldn't guys like Cat (shooting 80% from 3pt land) and Yao (shooting 50% from the field) get more shots than Steve? More of the same, Steve says one thing and does another.
how does being the point gurad and still jacking up the most shots on the team (17 shots yesterday) consdiered passing the ball more.
So you're telling me that Steve hasn't been passing the ball more than he has previous seasons. I'm gonna go on a limb and say that JVG probably told SF to shoot a little more and be more aggressive offensively. Steve getting his shot back and being more of a force offensively will help the team out tremendously. Entire teams collapse inside when Steve drives in, leaving JJ or Cat for wide open threes. Teams will start to hesitate on doubling Yao if Steve can get his shot back.
I've personally never been a big fan of a Francis/Davis trade even before reading the stats on this thread. Mainly because they look like similar players and Davis had been much more injury prone. Now I really don't think it's a good idea. I'm not sold on Steve as a shooter though. His inability to catch and shoot is quite bothersome. It seems as if many of his FGs in the past had been from penetration. Now that he's unable to penetrate as much, his outside shot does not look good.
Excellent post Da Man, couple of counter points however. What is maddening with SF is that he hasn't improved in those flaws in his game. He really isn't any better than his 2nd year in the league in playing the team game, as illustrated by statistics (A and A/TO) and intangibles (can't run a simple fastbreak, silly TOs, flash over steady court decision making). Another correlary to his not improving past his 2nd season is that this also suggests 90+ % of his game is based on his athleticism, when that slips a little what is left? Baron Davis is 3 years younger than Francis and played significantly less NBA games to improve upon his weaknesses. As others have said, I take the defense and A/TO improvement of Baron over the shooting % of SF. I think that is more important for the Rockets in a PG than the extra couple % points in shooting. Some guys (Marbury over their career) both have SF's shooting/scoring and more discipline in traiditonal PG duties. The fact SF hasn't become more disciplined and fundamental in 6 NBA seasons suggests 1) his BB brain just won't allow him to, or 2) he isn't willing to give up the freedom and highlight plays. I honestly think it is a lot more of #1 than his own effort or will to make himself better as a team player. In sum I think SF would make a lot of teams better than Baron (maybe even New Orleans because the rest of the guys can defend and board so well though they don't quit have an SF talented 1st option on offense), Nash or Bibby, but this isn't the case on a team with an option like Yao Ming or where an offense depends heavily on their players knowing where they are supposed to go and how to use other players on their team to their advantage. SF has great individual talent--typically understimated by a lot of Rocket fans arguing to trade him, it just can't be maximized IMO on the Rockets. I think he would be better off on a different team where is the unquestioned 1st option and they can live off his ISO. Who knows, a Baron-SF trade could benefit both teams, maybe if NO underachieves in the playoffs this could happen.
Yeah great post. I really wish we could have both! But Steve is my man...and I do not think Steve or Baron will be traded...are they shopping BD?
There is a certain crowd here that has an anybody but Steve FRancis mentality. IMO this is based on a dislike for Steve, and not a true desire to make the Rockes better, or at least not an objective desire. It's a 'grass is greener' kind of situation. Facts may not be on their side, but their minds are already bent in one direction.
I am one of these and here is why. It is not that SF isn't a ball player, it is just his value is greater elsewhere and why we should trade him for equivalent value that better fits the Rockets direction. This is not a "grass is greener" perspective, it is a calculated perspective, one not tainted by affect for one Steve Francis.
Da Man, Good post, but it ignores one point that I think is self-evident: Steve Francis will continue to stink it up as long as our offense is run the way it has been run this season under JVG. In other words, it's not as if Steve Francis will wake up tomorrow and be out of the slump. I think it's pretty well agreed upon that Steve Francis was to dominate the ball to be an effective scorer; this isn't permitted in the JVG "east coast" offensive, half-court set style of basketball. In addition, while we have all liked Steve's 20 pts., 6 rebounds and 6.2 assists over the past several years, nobody's ever heralded Steve Francis as the man with the highest basketball I.Q. And don't foget about Steve's career 1.6 to 1 assist to turnover ration (or thereabouts). I would trade Steve Francis in a heartbeat for many a combination of players, even if it means moving Mobley, Cato, Taylor and/or Jim Jackson to do it, assuming that the Rockets buy into JVG's plans for the team. My point? Steve sucks as a point guard. Period. I don't know why you think this will all be better next year when, barring a coaching change, nothing indicates that it will. -P1st, Snd
You admit that facts aren't on your side and then continue to push an argument You say that you'd like someone who is a better fit - clearly that isn't The Baron (which is the subject of this thread), so why try and force it? The thing is, Baron Davis turns the ball over more than 3 times per contest - his high number of assists reflects the fact that he is the creator of offense and that the game runs through him. Sure he has good ability to pass the ball and good vision, but when you are establishing a dump it down offense I don't think the point guard has as much liberty. It's off the top of my head, but I can't think of a team with a high assisting point guard in a dump it down offense (with a legit threat inside). Of course I can think of any number of point guards in a dump it down offense who can shoot.... I take Francis' shooting (as poor as it is this year) over Baron's A/TO improvement - spacing is more important than an extra 0.4 of a posession
No, that's not the only difference. It's not even the determinative one. The diffence is that different things are expected of a 1st or 2nd year player and a 5th year player. Far different things. There's a curve of development in the NBA. As long as a player is where he should be on the curve, people will forgive the skills he hasn't mastered yet. Francis, as a rookie or 2nd year... had plenty of time to improve. Now, the odds are against him improving significantly. It could happen - but in all likelihood, what you see is what you get. And it's not quite enough, given the expectations.
