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An idea for the point guard issue (Penny Hardaway)

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by tannersearle78, Nov 20, 2003.

  1. tannersearle78

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    Okay, I got an idea for the point guard issue

    Please, don't kill me for adding another "trade" idea. This is my first thread.

    Anyway, I found this article in ESPN. Apparantly, Penny Hardaway is very, very unhappy with the Suns and wants out, like really really really really really bad.

    I don't want to trade Steve. Steve is valuable, crucial.

    But how about this.

    Move Steve to the 2 spot.

    Trade Cuttino Mobley (and some other small players, perhaps even throw in Griffen if he gets a Get-out-of-jail free card) and get Penny Hardaway in return.

    Penny plays at the one, and Steve at the two.

    Penny is more a true point guard, and is at the stage in his career, where he just wants to contribute. His injuries are healed, and even though he's not an all-star (probably better that he isn't anymore), he is still one hell of a player and a great, great find.

    I love Cat to death, but it's not like we'll be sending him to a bad team. He gets to go Phoenix, a rising team.

    Best of all, we get Penny, which would free up Francis to do more with his talent--and Penny can also provide veteran leadership. Oh, and Penny used to play alongside Shaq, so I'll just assume he knows exactly how to pass to a big man.

    Is this a bad idea? Just think. Penny hates the Suns. Penny leaves the Suns. Penny goes to the Rockets. Penny and the Rockets kick the crap out of the Suns.


    By Sam Smith
    Special to ESPN.com


    Finally with healthy knees, Penny Hardaway says he's regained the spring in his step.
    PHOENIX -- Penny Hardaway got a new tattoo this summer. It reads "The Storm is Over."


    But the winds of doubt still haunt the former three-time, All-NBA player, the LeBron James of a decade ago who is tethered to the bench in Phoenix, a forgotten role player who wants people not only to remember who he was but to know he can be someone again.


    "It's been like a nightmare to me," Hardaway said. "I'm in the best physical shape since I've been in Phoenix. I feel like I can play point guard for any team in the league and average a double-double. I still have a lot to offer. I have a window of opportunity. I'm 32 and I have three or four great years of basketball left in me. I want a shot at being the Penny Hardaway everyone knew five years ago, but I feel I can't do that here. They've moved on here. They've got Joe Johnson and Casey Jacobsen and I feel like the organization is kind of giving up on me and doesn't think I can come around."


    Hardaway isn't exactly demanding a trade or going to make a fuss. He appreciates the generous contract he got from the Suns, who pay him $13.5 million this season and about $30 million additional through the 2005-06 season. He knows no one feels sorry for rich basketball players, so he's not seeking sympathy. Just the ball.


    He once had it, and when he did, there were few better. He was All-NBA first-team point guard in 1995 and 1996, a Magic Johnson-like player who filled up the box score. With hops and one of the best advertising campaigns ever, the Lil' Penny alter ego, he was the Next In Line. But Hardaway was struck down by five knee operations, most of which he played through with uneven results. The NBA moved on.


    Hardaway doesn't have the explosiveness anymore, but he still can shoot, pass and run a team. He says doctors have told him his healing is complete.


    "I don't want to retire early, sit on the bench and get a check," Hardaway said. "I want to finish my career on a high note. I was as popular as you can be -- All-NBA, Olympian. You couldn't get any higher than where I was. Now people think I'm done and washed up. They think if you're coming off the bench it means you can't play anymore. You get 14, 16 minutes, they figure you can't do anything anymore. But it's not the case. I'm competitive, athletic and I feel spry again. I can show that to people. I just don't feel I can do it with the Suns."


    Anyone need a point guard?


    There's that money thing, $13.5 million this season, $14.6 million in 2004-05 and $15.8 million in 2005-06. In this more economically aware era of the NBA, teams are reluctant to take on big contracts, especially for players averaging 5.6 points and 1.4 assists, as Hardaway was entering this week.


    But it's hard to to average double figures with about six shots a game and playing 18 minutes, as Hardaway has this season as a forgotten man for the struggling Suns. Hardaway knows what they say when you don't play and your team doesn't win: There must be something wrong with him. He must be done.


    Like they said about Vin Baker.


    "I was on one leg trying to survive," said Hardaway, who missed 24 games last season but just two the season before after surgery. "When I was injured, all the negative press was warranted. I deserved it. I was trying to be a team guy, playing hurt. I never took two years off to try to get fully well like Grant Hill. I was getting paid. I could have taken off. I wasn't able to run full speed. I was in terrible pain. I endured all that. Now it's time for me to go back to those glory days again. I can run and jump and score. Not being able to prove it hurts the most.


    “ I'm happy for Vin Baker. That's the type of story you want to hear, coming back and showing everyone who was down on you. I worked my butt off to get back that old form, but I'm not able to have the chance. ”
    — Penny Hardaway
    "I can play the game," Hardaway added. "I want my respect back. I'm happy for Vin Baker. That's the type of story you want to hear, coming back and showing everyone who was down on you. I worked my butt off to get back that old form, but I'm not able to have the chance."


    So is it real or is it just a memory?


    Hardaway was something to behold when he and Shaquille O'Neal went to the NBA Finals in just his second NBA season. They appeared to be the next great NBA dynasty in the making with Michael Jordan in retirement. The media and advertising world fell for Hardaway, a bright, articulate young man with an even more impressive game. O'Neal had become taken with him when they worked on the movie "Blue Chips" together and recommended the Magic draft him. And Hardaway didn't disappoint, averaging more than 20 points, seven assists and four rebounds by his second season. He was as versatile of a performer as there was in the NBA.


    But Jordan returned, the Magic were swept out of the playoffs by the Bulls, O'Neal swept himself out of Orlando as a free agent to the Lakers and Hardaway and the Magic -- poof! -- disappeared. There were a couple of first-round playoff ousters, a .500 season, a coaching change that Hardaway was said to inspire, feuds with the media and a community frustrated over the decline of the then-model franchise.


    Hardaway seemed to regain his game in the strike-shortened 1998-99 season, playing all 50 games and leading the Magic to a tie for first place. He averaged 15.8 points and more than five rebounds and five assists per game.


    The Suns came calling in the first flood of free agency under the new rules and Hardaway pocketed a maximum deal. He was to pair with Jason Kidd in a millenium backcourt to take the team and the league into the next century. The Suns would have their greatest playoff success since by defeating the defending champion San Antonio Spurs, who were without Tim Duncan, and going to the second round. But Kidd would miss much of that playoff run with an injury.


    And then Hardaway went down again for the next season, and there wouldn't be another chance.


    "They gave Jason and me one year to prove ourselves," Hardaway said. "After that one year, it was like, 'We're not waiting for you anymore. We're moving on as an organization.' I'm not being negative. It's what it is. No one thought I'd be able to come back after the injuries I had. People think I'm soft and bailed out on basketball. But it was five knee surgeries. ... It's not Frank's (Johnson) fault or Bryan's (Colangelo) fault. I worked my butt off to get where I am. The doctor said I was a medical marvel.


    "I'm a team guy," Hardaway added. "I don't want to make any waves. I'm being the professional, but I have dreams and wishes, too. ... I want to have a shot at being Penny again. I feel I can't have it here. ... I still have the skills, and I have the maturity from learning this game. The storm should be over."
     
  2. tannersearle78

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    Please, someone tell me if this is stupid so i can regret posting it.
     
  3. robbarnett

    robbarnett Member

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    don't know about having him as a PG, he'd be more like a SG wouldnt he???? He averages less assists than Steve, and Steve already gets bagged about how little he passes. I do like him, just don't know he would fit in the mix.
     
  4. rvpals

    rvpals Member

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    Rox management would not make a trade like that. Looks to me that GM now is really careful on making any moves. Not with all these moves that did not pan out. (Griffin, Kenny Thomas, Moochie)

    Although Penny is not washed up, he is clearly not worth the money the suns paying him, and I don't think our GM is going to want to spend that money and take on another high payroll and hope it works out.

    As for the point guard issue, we should be patient and see if SF can adapt and see if JVG's system can really take off. Unless we can get someone like Jason Kidd or Steve Nash right now.

    Anyway we should not trade Cat for Penny.

    It's not worth it, we should starting to really plan smartly for future (Yao's free agency, potential great free agents)

    Stop making any trade threads, please. (Getting tired of reading pages of trade threads everyday during the summer :D )

    We have a pretty good team right now personnel wise, we just need to see how things go this season with JVG. The success of this team is all up to the coach's ability to coach the players . The team needs teamwork & discpline

    I know Yao is coachable, but how about SF & Cat that are still making bonehead mistakes even though they have gotten better this year.
     
  5. CTC

    CTC Contributing Member

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    There are a couple problems with the trade. The clearest one is matching numbers. Penny's cap number is $13.5 mil. I don't know the exact details of the contracts but Mobley's number is aroound $5 mil. I think Cato's number is $7 mil. I think Moochie's number is $4 mil. So you need two to three players to equal Penny's contract. That will clearly drain the depth, and cause some disruption.

    The second is that you have longer term issues. Penny's contract is for three years -- so you have a huge cap number for a while. You may be okay with Yao - because he is signed for two more years with a one year option. But you are not going to be able to sign any free agents or have any flexibility for a while. That could be a problem if somebody goes down or if Penny gets worse at 35. They traded a first round pick to Utah just to clear up room for Jim Jackson, who only cost, I think $3 mil. So if Penny is logging $15 mil - and you can pick up quality veterans to fill in holes -- it is something to definitely think about. Sacramento had to basically drop Jackson, Clark, and Hedo because of cap issues.

    Of course the most contentious issue is how much Mobley is worth. Personally I think he is a good but streaky player -- but he may improve under JVG. I like Penny a lot -- but is he much better than Mobley right now? Penny is a smart player but his raw athleticism is not there. Also Penny at 32, with his bum knee, the trade could look a lot worse in one or two years. I think Phoenix is better playing Penny than JJ, but if Penny was really that much better, this wouldn't be an issue.

    So the numbers are hard to work, it really destroys flexibility, and Penny is getting older. It is not a terrible idea, [I loved Penny in the mid 90s], but two players for a big contract which erases flexibility is a tough trade to make.

    But it is more reasonable than most trades you see posted. :)
     
  6. yipengzhao

    yipengzhao Contributing Member

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    The biggest problem may be that the Suns would not trade with us. You don't really trade with people you're in direct contention with.
     
  7. hooi

    hooi Contributing Member

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    Appreciate your post.

    However, I thought the Rox just got rid of one broken down overpaid player in Glenn Rice. I don't think we need to get another one.

    As the article said, Penny is pulling down major bucks. Unless he is willing to do the Karl Malone and resign for $2 million a year, I would pass. Otherwise he is intriguing.

    Also in my mind, he is right up there with Marcus Camby and Grant Hill as the glass men of the NBA.
     
  8. CTC

    CTC Contributing Member

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    That's not really true. Utah traded with Houston. Seattle traded with LA Clippers. I think Toronto also traded with Detroit. All of these teams are in the same divisions. Now it is not the LA Lakers trading with San Antonio Spurs but the six teams above all think they have a shot at the playoffs --- so not clear why Phoenix will think about Houston any differently.
     
  9. AMS

    AMS Contributing Member

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    Dude, I would never trade FOR Penny... That would be like sending MOT for Shawn Kemp... Heck No
     
  10. whats up

    whats up Contributing Member

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    Yea sounds good! They're starting Joe Johnson over A. Hardaway and Mobley is better than Johnson... and... hmm so why would we do the trade?

    We would have a smoother offence with Hardaway(and I'm not talking about individual statistics), but Mobley is a better defender. What we gain with Hardaway on offence we lose on defence. Not to mention that Mobley makes way much less.
     
  11. SaFe

    SaFe Contributing Member

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    god, you guys make it sound like when mobley is on the floor our offense just breaks down. fyi, mobley is still the most consistent 3-point threat on this team and is the most reliable in knocking down open jumpers. This enough, makes him more valueble then having washed up Penny on the floor. Honestly, I don't even think Steve would be that much better at SG then Cuttino, so what is the point of this trade? :confused:
     
  12. Mack

    Mack Contributing Member

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    This trade might make some sense:

    Moochie ($3.6 mill)
    Amaechi ($2.6 mill)
    $7 mill trade exception

    For Hardaway and several draft picks.

    Phoenix would really have to sweeten the deal to take on Hardaway's ridiculous contract. If this trade is actually allowable, then Phoenix would free up $7 mill, and Amaechie's contract ends after next season, freeing up an additional $2.9 mill. They'd still have Moochie until 2007, though :) I can see Phoenix doing this to save money, and gain roster flexibility, merely by dumping a spare part. Houston would dump Moochie's contract and cast Amaechi aside, betting that Hardaway can actually still play.

    If I were the Rockets, I still don't think I'd do it. Sure, you get rid of Moochie, but Hardaway is a huge huge risk, and would probably put Houston into luxury tax territory. Phoenix's draft picks probably wouldn't be very good, either, they never seem to outright suck like the Clippers.
     
  13. tannersearle78

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    About how expensive Hardaway is.

    I think Hardaway wouldn't mind taking a pay cut to play for the Rockets.

    By the sound of the article, he gets paid a lot by the Suns--and he's not happy.

    It sounds like the money isn't worth not being able to play and contribute to the team.

    Guys, this isn't a player who has the superficial notion of being great. Penny Hardaway has already been there. He simply wants to play his best game, and be given the opportunity to do so.

    I think he is sooooo not like Rice in that respect. Hardaway doesn't want to get paid tons of money for easy, garbage minutes.

    He wants to be a part of it all.

    Also, the Suns would LOVE to free up all that salary space by getting rid of Hardaway--especially, since they're not using him all that much.

    Mobley is a great defender, but he didn't start playing great defense until Van Gundy came along. I'm sure Hardaway would improve greatly on his defense under Van Gundy.

    Even though he doesn't a whole bunch of assists, this is a guy who doesn't care about taking over a game--even though he's proven he can do so. He wants to win.

    Lastly, Penny had a really bad falling out with Shaq when he left to the Lakers.

    What better way to get back at Shaq AND the Suns.

    Penny teams up with Yao, and helps him clobber the Lakers and Shaq.

    1. His injuries are healed
    2. His veteran input would be invaluable
    3. Though he's not the Jordan prodigy and All-star he used to be, enough of that is still there to use, since the Suns aren't using it. And enough of it is gone so that he won't butt heads with the young, up and coming stars in Francis and Yao.
    4. Overall, his skills are great. His passing skills would make the Rockets' offense that much more formidable.
    5. He doesn't have delusions of grandeur, if he ever did. This is a guy who was once pinned to be one of the next Michael Jordans (along with Grant Hill). He's a former Dream Teamer, helped his team make it to the NBA finals in his second season as an NBA player--and lost it all to realize what's truly important. Simply playing the game, and being part of a team.

    Cat is great. Don't get me wrong. But we wouldn't be screwing him over by sending him to Phoenix, and, honestly, I think Hardaway is better than Johnson (the current Hardaway), so it's obvious that Phoenix is being really stupid with what they have.

    One thing that makes Hardaway worth it is his Basketball IQ. He has GREAT court vision. An extremely smart player. That's the one glaring flaw in Cat as a player--his lack of court smarts. And what the Rockets need right now is solid basketball smarts to start winning more games with ease. Look at how much Jim Jackson has improved the team because of that one quality alone.

    Penny is too good to not be a starter for the Suns, and I'm sure he wouldn't mind playing for the Rockets with a salary comparable to Mobleys.

    Oh, and one more thing. Penny Hardaway has a lot of class. He could really help the overall team composure.
     
  14. tannersearle78

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    Also, Penny is really flexible. I'm pretty sure he could play the 1, 2, or 3.

    This is a player who can give a little bit of what Cleveland has in LeBron.
     
  15. IROC it

    IROC it Contributing Member

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    We're 8-3... no need yet for trade. Our team is just now beginning to get healthy and/or back from suspensions (EG's probably going to jail, but...) and the real oush is now on its way.

    Don't upset what little momentum we've had in 4-5 years just as it gets rolling.

    Please.:rolleyes:
     
  16. tannersearle78

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    He also plays way less minutes than Steve. Penny is a guy who was able to jell with Shaq. THat says a lot.
     
  17. Timing

    Timing Member

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    Penny's not a pure point guard which is already the type of problem we have. Plus the guy is hurt all the time, I recall him not being able to play once because his shoes wouldn't fit. I mean c'mon! That said, I'd take him if they were giving him away for our scraps but I wouldn't trade Cat for him even if he makes you want to pull your hair out every other game.
     
  18. Timing

    Timing Member

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    I forgot to mention, the Polish Cannon is about ready to play as well so we need to see how he meshes on the floor before we consider making trades for guys like Penny.
     
  19. Dave2000

    Dave2000 Contributing Member

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    Whats funny is that I read that article this afternoon and wondered how long it would take before I see someone post to trade for Penny, and it didnt take long at all. This brings me to my sig below, hell, Clutch would be rich if I donated a nickel for every trade proposal on here.
     
  20. uac

    uac Contributing Member

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