1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

"America's golden moment."

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by No Worries, Jun 1, 2005.

  1. pirc1

    pirc1 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2002
    Messages:
    13,971
    Likes Received:
    1,701
    US still have very high standard of living. Health care is good if you are not one of the unlucky ones who can not afford it. China does not have to catch up to the us in living standard to over take US as the world's leading super power, when China's overall GNP surpass US (by some estimate within the next 20 years).
     
  2. deepblue

    deepblue Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2002
    Messages:
    1,648
    Likes Received:
    5
    Superpower means acheive the same level of technology/world influence/military capability. GNP alone is not going to do it, chinese military (most importantly their navy) is at least 50 years away.
     
  3. pirc1

    pirc1 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2002
    Messages:
    13,971
    Likes Received:
    1,701
    There are many ways to define super power. One of which is the most economical influence in the world. If China replaces US as the world's largest market, I would think that makes China a super power. China certainly want military influence, but I doubt at the level of current US.
     
  4. deepblue

    deepblue Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2002
    Messages:
    1,648
    Likes Received:
    5
    Do you live in U.S. or outside?
     
  5. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Messages:
    43,400
    Likes Received:
    25,405
    You're deeply mistaken if you believe China won't become a superpower in 15 years. The concept of military is overrated if China doesn't seek to project its influence outside Asia. It's overrated through the policy of deterrence with ICBMs.

    If anything, China has more to lose by playing through Western definitions of prestige and brinkmanship. Should China focus on stripping the US of its status of being the world's economic leader and displace the overvalued dollar's role as the de facto currency reserve, US's millitary dominance (along with America's alarming Medicare/Medicaid system) would play a large role in America's collapse. It wouldn't be a gradual decline, and that could happen in the next 20, not 50, years.
     
  6. deepblue

    deepblue Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2002
    Messages:
    1,648
    Likes Received:
    5
    USSR was a super power, and it was far from being the world's largest market. Japan would be a semi superpower already if only economical influence matters. You cannot be considered a super power without the military capability to back it up.
     
  7. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    11,064
    Likes Received:
    8
    That's certainly an issue but economically the PRC is poised to attain superpower status not that long from now. Militaries still matter but in Thomas Friedman's flat world economic might counts for a lot.

    When I've been in Asia I've been hearing a lot of worry about the long term stability of the US government and economy. Right now countries like Japan and Singapore are continuing to float us credit because they need our economy but I talked to a few who were very open about saying that their economic future is in China, Europe and India. Once those other markets surpass or are comparable to the US then there will be less interest in continuing to provide credit to the US.

    The US has several indemic problems right now and I don't think many of our current policies are helping.
     
  8. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Messages:
    14,304
    Likes Received:
    596
    I have to agree with wnes, especially on the health care side. American health care is really messed up.
     
  9. deepblue

    deepblue Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2002
    Messages:
    1,648
    Likes Received:
    5
    How can you be a superpower if you can't/won't project your influence outside of Asia, how can you protect your flow of resources, protect your overseas interests/allies. Oh yeah, China has about 400 nukes, and almost all land based, that's hardly a superpower deterrence.

    The Chinese yuan doesn't even flow freely, its peged against the US dollar, its nowhere close to being the "de facto currency reserve". When/if it starts to flow, its increased value would hurt its low cost advantage. Suddenly the massive amount of US treasury they are holding is going to be worth whole lot less. Why do you think the Chinese are resisting the call to move their currency. It took a long time for the US dollar to be accepted as the currency reserve for many. You think those holding US treasury and US guaranteed notes would just switch? Would you trust your currency reserve to a communist government?

    Next 20 years? collapse? One thing for sure, if US collapsed, the world would suffer with it along with China, who do you think are buying the toys, tvs, cloth from walmart. Raise of China doesn't have to mean the collapse US, in fact it can be win-win for both sides.
     
  10. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2000
    Messages:
    11,064
    Likes Received:
    8
    Its good that you bring up the USSR because that's the perfect example of why a military superpower can't last unless its also an economic one. The Soviets weren't beaten militarily but economically and I can easily see a situation where the US ends up in the same situation. Its spending can no longer be supported by revenues and the credit spigot is cut off. At that point our military cannot maintain itself. I personally think that days not as far off which is why I think its in the US longterm interests to have other countries or regions develop their own defense regimes.

    You're absolutely correct that the collapse of the US would be disastrous if it happened right now but I don't think any of us are thinking about that happening in the next few years but over the next few decades. There's already rumblings in many sectors about switching currency reserves over to the Euro and while the Yuan is pegged to the Dollar continued weakness in the dollar will prompt them to drop it and either let it float or switch to the Euro. So while the PRC is still selling like crazy to the US that is fueled by credit, partly extended by the PRC itself. Once their own domestic market and other markets catch up their will be no reason to float to the US economy through credit since they can sell just as much domestically.

    Protecting resource lines is important but again I think you're thinking along 20th C. lines with the flattening of the global economy accesses to resources and goods is more flexible than ever. Oil is still a big concern but that is why the PRC is flexing its diplomatic muscle in the middle east but also the PRC is starting to develop new technology and their own domestic energy since they're aware that dependence on the foreign sources is a long term liability.
     
  11. MR. MEOWGI

    MR. MEOWGI Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Messages:
    14,382
    Likes Received:
    11
    This is still cracking me up.
     
  12. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2003
    Messages:
    8,196
    Likes Received:
    19
    This is a funny question irrelevant to the intended discussion, although I wouldn't mind replying with a simple "yes". To get back to your original statement that Americans have access to the best health care in the world, I'll provide you with some hard facts you are welcome to dispute (or twist if you want).

    Someone did a fairly comprehensive comparison of US health care system with those in other developed countries.

    Data (from Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development) in recent years show US had the highest health spending per capita, highest health spending as percentage of GDP, lowest life expectancy at birth, and highest infant mortality rate.

    Further, data from OECD and WHO show US had the highest child (< 5 yr) mortality rate, one of the highest maternal death rates, among the lowest in life expectancy at age 60, highest percent of total life expectancy spent in poor health.

    In addition, US is among industrialized nations with the fewest doctors per 1000 people, lowest number of hospital beds per 1000 people.

    Granted US has the most advanced technology of medicine in the world (and perhaps the high number of specialists per 1000 people), the overall measures in terms of the health of its people, and in terms of those mediocre outcomes despite the astronomical costs, overwhelmingly indicate US does not have a good health care system.
     
    #52 wnes, Jun 3, 2005
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2005
  13. No Worries

    No Worries Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1999
    Messages:
    30,177
    Likes Received:
    17,118
    Americans have access to the best health care in the world.

    Americans have access to the most expensive health care in the world.
     
  14. bnb

    bnb Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2002
    Messages:
    6,992
    Likes Received:
    315
    How about.....SOME americans have access to the best health care in the world ;)
     
  15. pippendagimp

    pippendagimp Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2000
    Messages:
    27,040
    Likes Received:
    21,274
    Not the world, just our little dreamworld. Also, thanks for the travel suggestion....I'll have to look into that.
     
  16. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2003
    Messages:
    8,196
    Likes Received:
    19
    Geeze, don't I realize a table (graph) or two are worth more than thousands of words. Here there are if you wonder:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  17. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2003
    Messages:
    8,196
    Likes Received:
    19
    More:

    This is something you apologists may find solace in.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    #57 wnes, Jun 3, 2005
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2005
  18. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2003
    Messages:
    8,196
    Likes Received:
    19
    Last batch:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Hey, here's something I am pround of.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  19. pippendagimp

    pippendagimp Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2000
    Messages:
    27,040
    Likes Received:
    21,274
    Actually all it really took was a 1971 OPEC mandate that all oil be bought and sold in US Dollars only.

    The Chinese are moving towards having their currency backed by gold. The US backs its currency with the full faith of the [bankrupt] US government. It's an obvious decision for the investor who wants to retain value.
     
  20. pirc1

    pirc1 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2002
    Messages:
    13,971
    Likes Received:
    1,701
    always thought the socialist states spend higher % on health care, well guess we are really better off by spending more and getting less.:rolleyes:
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now