I realize you have a hard time believing this. I suppose Bush, Cheney and McCain sat in a room and Bush said "well, John...2 to 1...we win...lets torture". My guess is that we know what we are doing....and I will sleep well knowing that.
There may be some people in the CIA who believe torture works. I haven't heard any of them, however. I also haven't seen any concrete examples of it working. I listed at least one concrete example of whre torture gave us unreliable and incorrect information, and it didn't protect one innocent American life, but so far has cost the lives of 2,000 soldiers and that number is growing. Forgive me if I don't sing the praises and benefits of torture.
The reason you havent heard them is probably because its not public knowledge...like everytime some brown skinned innocent gets on the news and whines about having to listen to eminem too loud. You havent seen examples of it working? You wouldnt genius.....info that is being gathered as a result of this torture is preventing things from happeneing....so therefore, there is nothing concrete to see you are forgiven
I would like to see where you are getting that information. I would be most interested. trader, It seems to me, and please corrects me if I'm wrong, that you are against "torture" but that you would like to redefine torture to not include sleep deprivation, mock drowning, etc. Is that correct?
My guess is that we know what we are doing....and I will sleep well knowing that. Wow, talk about suspension of disbelief. The torture that happened in Abu Ghraib prison is us clearly not knowing what we are doing.
LOL!!! So your belief that does work is based on what? I forgot to post that there is some secret info that only people who don't make racist remarks got, and it said that in secret torture never works, so even though you won't ever know about it, it really is the case, you will just have to trust me on that one. For the record listening to music too loud isn't torture in my book, as I've already posted. But there are prisoners that have hung and killed, raped etc. That is torture.
When your argument's basis is that because we haven't heard anything, it must be true then your claims have serious issues. First, torture doesn't work. I don't know of these experts you speak of. (and no dick cheney, rumsfeld, karl rove, etc.. don't count) But I do know of actual members of the military community from Colin Powell to former members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to John McCain who have said that torture has and will not work. Sorry man but 24 is a fictional tv show and doesn't depict reality. Furthermore, some members of the military say that torture encourages people to lie. In order to end torture, many make up fanciful scenarios that we want to hear. We don't torture domestic suspects for the some reasons. Because confessions elicited from torture are more often then not false in order to get out of the torture. Second, your eminem example is laughable. Claims coming out of Iraq go beyond eminem and deal with much more serious actions. Furthermore, you can't justify torture. I thought what made this nation great was the fact that we didn't have to justify ourselves by saying "oh yea at least our torture isn't as bad as Saddam's." I thought we used to say "hey we're the leader of the FREE world because we don't engage in inhumane activities like torture." Wake up and smell the reality of the situation. Countries don't respect us and certainly have less of a desire to cooperate with a country that isn't even upholding the values that it purports to promote in its "democratization" of Iraq and Afghanistan. And I'll take a play from your playbook. You are TREASONOUS by upholding an anti-american value like torture. There was a reason the bill of rights contained the phrase cruel and unusual punishment as well as due process of law. Apparently, some people forgot that.
The original post was not whether or not torture is appropriate. I do not feel we should condone torture. My original post was whether or not these techniques qualify as torture. I believe that most if not all of them do not.
the CIA labels them as enhanced interrogation techniques.. they probably did extensive research to come up with these.. here's the definition of torture so if they can be used as a tool for the extraction of information or confessions.. then thats torture.. heck even when CIA agents were put through one of those techniques they caved in in seconds..
How are you doing? I just tortured you by using a question to attempt to extract information. TORTURED
Regardless of whether or not you think the list at the beginning constitutes torture is irrelevant. Its more about what other nations think and what the Iraqi people percieve. You can't expect to win "the hearts and minds" if you are percieved to torture detainees. Especially, when we are expected to provide a model for Iraq and the world. John McCain made that clear. US Credibility is tanking. Torture or what is purportedly torture is worthless. It doesn't work and the costs of our policy in terms of Iraqi and international perception of American policy outweighs the supposed benefits.
Torture?....hummm? WWJD? Well?..... Jesus was tortured. But didn't he say "forgive them Lord they now not what they do"?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4461642.stm US man guilty of Bush death plot Ahmed Omar Abu Ali Prosecutors said Abu Ali was recruited in Saudi Arabia A US citizen has been convicted of plotting to kill President George W Bush and being a member of al-Qaeda. Ahmed Omar Abu Ali, 24, faces a possible life sentence after a US jury found him guilty on nine counts, including conspiracy to hijack a plane. The Arab-American student was held in Saudi Arabia in 2003 and reportedly confessed to membership of al-Qaeda. His defence team said he was tortured and forced to confess, but the judge refused to disallow the confession. Meanwhile, another American, Jose Padilla, has been charged with terror offences more than three years after being seized. Mr Padilla was one of only two US citizens being held as an enemy combatant after being arrested in May 2002. He was originally suspected of plotting to explode a "dirty bomb" but was charged with other terror-related offences on Tuesday. His case had become a battleground between the US government and civil libertarians over how far the authorities could go in holding Americans without charge. 'Fight not over' The jury in the Abu Ali case deliberated for more than two days before giving its verdict, which the defence vowed to appeal. We intend to use the justice system to prove our client's innocence Defence lawyer Khurrum Wahid Abu Ali will be sentenced in February. Abu Ali was held in Saudi Arabia until February 2005, when he was returned to the US and charged on nine counts. Prosecutors alleged that he aimed to establish an al-Qaeda cell similar to the one that carried out the 9/11 attacks. According to charges, it was proposed that Abu Ali would shoot Mr Bush on the street or detonate a car bomb. Abu Ali was born in Houston and raised in Falls Church, Virginia. Prosecutors said that he made contact with al-Qaeda while studying at university in Medina, Saudi Arabia, in 2001. Outlining the charges in February, prosecutor Paul McNulty said Abu Ali had "turned his back on the US and joined the cause of al-Qaeda". "Obviously the jury has spoken but the fight is not over," defence lawyer Khurrum Wahid said outside the federal court in Alexandria, Virginia. "We intend to use the justice system to prove our client's innocence." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ It will be real sad when this mans innocence is proven after many years of jail time that he is probably going to end up spending. torture and force were the reason he is in this predicament. pathetic.
